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Should Donegal join Northern Ireland?

  • 10-10-2021 9:08am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4 westbritney81


    Given the decades-long neglect of the county (see mica scandal, poor roads, dismantling of the railways in the 50s and 60s, underfunding and cancelling of the cancer services at Letterkenny hospital forcing people to have to commute to Dublin for chemo) do you think it is time for Donegal to give this a serious thought and that Donegal would be better off as a part of Northern Ireland?

    The NHS would greatly benefit patients as the services at Letterkenny hospital could be expanded and integrated with nearby Atlnagalvin hospital in Derry, NI are upgrading the Belfast-Derry road into a motorway which could be more easily expanded to Letterkenny if it were a part of NI, and the NI rail links could also easily be expanded into LK if Letterkenny were in NI.

    Given that there are already a lot of donegal plates with the UK-style registration, I think there is an underground appetite for this.

    Do you think this is a good idea?

    Should Donegal join Northern Ireland? 221 votes

    Yes
    26% 59 votes
    No
    73% 162 votes
    Post edited by Chips Lovell on


«1

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Only if their joining NI meant there could be no unification vote in NI for 50 years, then fine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    How about a swap for Armagh and Down?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't see why. Northern Ireland is one of the poorest regions in Europe and requires massive subsidies from Westminster to keep afloat. The only difference between London and Dublin on that score is that the former has, for now, deeper pockets.

    There's also Brexit. Donegal would get on the receiving end outside of the compromise for NI laid out in the NI protocol. That motorway and the rail extensions won't happen for several years if this happened so that argument is a non-runner.

    Finally, the NHS is a wreck. Staff are overworked and stretched thin. It's not something to envy. Accessing any sort of service on it is a nightmare and, depending on your location you could wait days to almost a month to see your GP.

    I'm from Donegal and I was raised in a staunch Unionist background but I've never heard anyone even joke about this.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,738 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Are you asking should Donegal join Northern Ireland, or should we just dump Donegal on Northern Ireland?

    EDIT - Hmm.... interesting user name, first post - journalist or troll?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think as a performative attempt to unferline how badly the county has fared under Dublin governments it's fair to ask.


    Not sure London would be any better, mind



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  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Lincoln Strong Yo-yo


    Westminster wants rid of the six counties so I can't envisage them taking a seventh onboard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    Sure while we are at it throw in Monaghan and Cavan, maybe Leitrim. Not much value keeping any of them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,158 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The Irish government is progressing a major upgrade of roads in Donegal. See

    This is supposed to be done in conjunction with a new A5 in the north. I'd have more faith in the Donegal projects being delivered than the A5 tbh, that's thats with Ireland paying a chunk towards it.

    NI are not upgrading the Belfast-Derry road to a motorway. The current Dungiven bypass isn't even motorway and there is no way a motorway will be built by Glenshane pass. The rest of the A6 east of there is unlikely to see major investment any time soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 809 ✭✭✭techman1


    thats not true, they will put up a much bigger fight than what we may think, they also won't let Scotland go. But at the end of the day it will be up to the people of NI to decide, can't see them ever voting for reunification, thats the reason why the NI subvention from Westminster is so high to keep the people onside. We can never match that subvention because we are a small country of only 5 million, they have 60 million with a huge economy, we just don't have the resources. Look how difficult it was for the mighty West German economy to incorporate East Germany in the 90s , it put the german economy into a decade long recession



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    NI =/= communist East Germany FFS.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    Regarding railways, the Stormont government (via the UTA) had more to do with the closures in border counties than the Dublin government did. Stormont was very anti-rail back in those days and even wanted to single track the section of the Dublin line from Portadown to the border. The GNRI line to Derry was closed in favour of the NCC route via Coleraine as the latter went through predominantly Unionist territory. CIE tried to retain services to the border after the northern side was closed but were unable to keep it going.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,738 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Made it easier for the Russians to ship out German domestic toilets after the war.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    How is that one supposed to happen? A referendum by the people of Donegal would probably be the best democratic option to do so? And then, as you said yourself, there is Brexit to consider as well. And then there are citizenship matters to be considered. Citizens of NI can have both passports, British and Irish, as far as I know. What would be the worst is if it wasn't to the people of Donegal to decided but the decision being made by Dublin and London. However I would doubt that that would happen.

    What I would have considered is Fermanagh to join the Republic of Ireland as Fermanagh is majority catholic. It's at least worth a consideration.





  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,167 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Ideally we could dump Donegal onto the UK and somehow get them to pay for the mica mess. Then the NI Secretary would have to call a border poll because the majority would be there.


    In reality NI has very little infrastructure west of the Bann so no help to Donegal there. Much of the funding from here to extend the N2 to Derry would go that city wouldn't benefit much from the extended hinterland. Cornwall got shafted as the Tories only matched about 3% of EU funding, and more of their voter base go there than Donegal.

    Fishing quotas would be a mess. One boat - Voyager has over half of NI's quota and there's a few supertrawlers based in Killybegs. And the whole Gaeltacht thing.

    Unemployment in Donegal is high. Benefits in the UK aren't.

    It would tidy up some of the claims to Rockall.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    First post and the user goes full steam into what reads mostly like a Far Away Hills rant, feeling unloved by Merrion St. How anyone could seriously think London would be happy to subsidise another county is beyond me. Unless, as I said, it's read as a frustrated screed against Dublin. At least Donegal still has a hospital, ask Monaghan folk how they feel about health services and after looking forlornly at the old hospital on Hill St. you'll get a similar rant. All of rural Ireland has grievences; teh answer shouldn't be to flounce away to a worse master.

    An especially poor decision too given the NI Protocol is being used as a political football by a defensive unionist leadership, terrified about the North pivoting economically towards the Republic. Doubt they'd want a new set of constituents further muddying the waters; and doubt anyone wants to join the UK while it's spinning out of control.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Talk of giving Irish territory to UK shows how we were so easily subjugated by the British for so long and how we lost our language.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It'll be different this time, if the British are moving to Ireland again. They will come to Ireland as refugees from an isolationist and Brexit-sticken country which is ruled by a blonde madman who never even learned how to comb his hair.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 975 ✭✭✭Parachutes


    A unionist background in Donegal? How does that work, seems a bit oxymoronic to me.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wasn’t East Germany more successful at the time of unification than either Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,837 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Donegal would rather be ignored by Dublin than Belfast/London. The arbitrage opportunities of the border are also nice.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    1st - by what measure?

    2nd - how is that relevant to ROI and NI today?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I think it's very very hard to ever compare East Germany to Northern Ireland.

    One of the main differences is that the conflict in Northern Ireland is way over 500 years old.

    East Germany, and East Berlin and the sealed border between them both was the result of communism and two economically different systems, and that communism in power in another country, namely in Russia, not even 50 years at the time. Thus it was always very clear, would communism collapse, so would the Berlin wall.

    Regarding Northern Ireland, one would have to go back to the Plantation. Also it's not the case that the protestants would move back to Britain overnight.

    The Good Friday Agreement as well as EU membership of both countries were the best solution to the problem and towards a peaceful future. Sadly Brexit destroyed that. Who knows that the future will bring here.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    1) GDP per capita

    2) I was responding to the thread. That’s the way it works.

    you are the person who said that absorbing Northern Ireland couldn’t be compared to absorbing East Germany, in fact I think without the British subsidies Northern Ireland might well be in a worse position.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,738 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,531 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Donegal is in northern Ireland. In fact, a spot in Donegal is the most northerly on the whole island.

    Should it join the temporarily little arrangement whereby 6 of our counties are under the influence of foreign invaders, because it has car registration plates that some people make look similar? Well I think the ridiculousness of that proposition speaks for itself.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That’s a proper answer!

    my point is that, even economically, absorbing Northern Ireland might be as or more difficult than absorbing East Germany was for the Germans. As you point out though there are other factors involved.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Why? East Donegal in particular has a considerable amount of Protestants along with Orange Lodges. The boundary commission of 1924-5 was expected to hand large amounts of territory from Northern Ireland to the then Free State. However, it also recommended that East Donegal join the new Northern Irish state and so the Cosgrave government abandoned it.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 975 ✭✭✭Parachutes


    So are you Irish or British?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The thing is that in contrary to Scotland where an independence referendum would have to be approved by London, Northern Ireland can actually hold a referendum on their future without London's consent.

    The problem to this is that even if that referendum in Northern Ireland would see a result of a majority in favour of leaving the UK and joining the Republic of Ireland, that this is not automatically going to happen.

    I would suggest that the FF and the SF and a couple of other radical republicans will probably be very happy if there ever was a majority in the North for reuniting with the Republic, but big future problems might arise. ( Also it's not clear that every catholic in Northern Ireland would automatically vote for reuniting with the Republic )

    Say for instance if the government in Dublin would in a unified Ireland then rule over Northern Ireland and the protestant, loyalist or unionist communities don't like what Dublin is doing, would then the UFF and the UDF start bombings in Dublin?

    It doesn't mean that this would happen, but the possibility of a conflict with deadly and violent intent being carried out on the soil of the Republic of Ireland would always be there. It's a scary thought which must always be considered.

    And then there are financial implications. Northern Ireland currently receives transfer payments from London, - they would cease to exist and Dublin would have to pay that bill, - with EU subsidies or not. Ultimately it'll be the question, in whose pockets you'd rather have your hands, in London's or in Bruxelles's?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,631 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    This is obviously not a serious question. The only underground appetite for this would be in the orange lodges of the county. Donegal isn't going anywhere.

    Also the NHS is already on the brink in NI just dealing with 6 counties. Type 'Northern Ireland health crisis' into Google and you'll get plenty of info on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 809 ✭✭✭techman1


    yea East Germany was poor with low expectations however NI is rich and they have high expectations, they want their standard of living to continue, the Brits have proved they can do it we can't, our track record is not great , we had one of the worst collapses after the financial crash and now we have the highest per capita national debt in Europe after borrowing so much for the financial crash and now the Covid lockdowns



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Jim Allister’s parents were county Monaghan Protestants, had they stayed in Monaghan do you think aul Jim would have been any less unionist in his heart.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,837 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Yeah, only the part that's west of the Bann is like communist East Germany.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,167 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Very true, the East Germany / West Germany comparison isn't valid anymore.


    The North / South GDP per capita comparison is more like North Korea / South Korea now.



  • Posts: 61 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    "requires massive subsidies from Westminster to keep afloat"

    any good articles that go through this?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Not that I know of. I've encountered multiple figures. This Irish Times piece puts it at just shy of ten billion per annum.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,167 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The Allocated Expenditure is where the "Devils is in the detail" is on any reunification costs. For example Ireland spends a much lower % of GDP on defence than the UK so there's probably a billion pounds to be saved on that item alone. After independence the UK continued to pay state employees pensions because those people had paid tax to the UK.

    So reunification cost of between £5.7 - £11.3Bn depending on how the horse trading would go. There'd also be EU assistance and Foreign Direct Investment which should reduce unemployment so what the actual cost would be year one or year five would need much crystal ball gazing.

    https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/07/22/would-a-united-ireland-be-affordable/



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I have tried to get figures on NI finances or trade with little hard results. It can only be deliberate that these figures are not available, or just too complicated to unravel. For example, how much of Trident and defence in general is attributed to NI?

    Trade between GB and NI is not straight forward, since imports into GB from, say, the EU and then exported to NI are counted as GB>NI trade, but could just as easily be imported in Ireland and then exported to NI and would then appear as Ireland>NI trade. Much of imports from GB into Ireland were such trades, but the imposition of (Brexit) tariffs has eliminated some of this trade with more to come as supply channels adjust.

    It is the same with state finances in NI. How much is a direct cost to the NI finances, and how much is just an allocation. For example, M&S (and many other companies) supply NI and make profits but pay their corporation tax in GB, and probably much of their VAT, and some employee taxes.

    It is too complicated to unravel without access to the secret figures hidden in the UK Treasury.



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Magnolia Fat Shot-putter


    It's a great idea, it should tip the balance in any future Unified Ireland referendum up here. Get it done. While we're at it, can we have Sligo too ? No need to bother with Cavan or Monaghan though, thanks all the same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,583 ✭✭✭✭retalivity


    Screw joining NI, would much rather go the Goats Don't Shave route and become a wet, grey Monaco.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    That's all you know. Donegal is full of Jaffas!

    There has always been (Covid lockdowns excepted) an Orange 12th July parade in Rossnowlagh, the only one regularly to take place in the Republic. Much of the hinterland of Derry is in Donegal, Inishowen especially. One famous person whose family home was in Moville (in Donegal but just down the road from Derry) was Field Marshall Bernard Law Montgomery. He may have chosen Molly Malone as one of his Desert Island Discs (this is actually true!) but he was no Irish nationalist.

    There are sizable Protestant communities in Donegal within reach of Derry, although it is fair to say that many have gradually seeped over the Foyle to the East Bank in recent decades.

    Having said which: I doubt there is any appetite for annexation by NI from either side of the divide.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,014 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That would be between £5.7 bn and £11.3 bn a year. We are not building the DART Underground for 30 years because it costs around €10 bn in total.

    So we could definitely afford unification, not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Luttrell1975


    You know, when I think of it a population of 160 thousand of whom 130 thou are nationalist would tip the north over the point where it needs the big border poll.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've just had a brilliant idea. Rather than Donegal Joining NI, How about NI joins the rest of Ireland. I wonder why nobody ever thought about that before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,571 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    If the UK Government's and Westminister politicians were anyway clever instead of leaving the EU they would have lobbied for Europe to help us Ireland that is to take back the 6 Counties that they obviously do not want and the would have paid and gave the Unionists and protestants that want to stay in the UK a big house and some land in the UK mainland to keep them happy. Yes that might cost them a bit but it would still be a lot cheaper than them constantly having to fund Northern Ireland.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,583 ✭✭✭✭retalivity


    Immigrant loving England taking in 1m+ of their 'brethren' and giving them all houses and land? What could possibly go wrong??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,571 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Are you sure it's 1 million Unionists and protestants out of a population of 1.885million?

    Sure wouldn't they only be delighted to welcome there brethren back home lol.

    Some could go to Scotland some to England and some to Wales. So roughly 333.3thosand to each country.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,583 ✭✭✭✭retalivity


    Maybe closer to 800k, if the percentage is under 50%, and that's if they all wanted to leave. I'd guess the 'hard' unionist base is around 20% of the population, maybe even less. Could sell it to the English as a reverse plantation, here's who can come in and do all the minimum wage jobs like picking vegetables, cleaners and drivers, now they've kicked everyone else post-Brexit!



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