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Yet another young woman attacked by a male. When will it end?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,053 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I have written proof what you said about the Constitution is incorrect and am happy to make it public if anyone wants to bring it to public attention...

    The quotes you both mention aren't so different... My point in saying what i said in the first place is that women (i think?) are the primary carers in most cases of younger children... How come the boys turn out to be batsarda and the girls little angles... I am not saying this is correct but its worth talking about...



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I have written proof what you said about the Constitution is incorrect and am happy to make it public if anyone wants to bring it to public attention...

    That would be interesting



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,926 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I’m happy to be corrected on anything I’ve said, it’s the whole point of a discussion I would have thought. Certainly if you know better than I do, by all means like!

    You’re not wrong in saying that the primary carers of children are women, certainly in Ireland anyway where according to CSO figures 98% of parents working in the home are women, and only 2% are men.

    Children’s primary influences however, are another matter entirely, and can and do change throughout their development towards adulthood. Beginning with formal education, they form peer groups outside of their parents influence and control, notwithstanding the fact that educators in a school environment are regarded as acting in loco parentis, ie - in place of the parents.

    And as for the idea that that the primary carers of children being women has any bearing on their development, the argument underlying your theory is predicated upon the belief that women generally think the same as each other, when in reality that’s simply not true - women are as individual as anyone else, which is precisely why some children turn out to be little bastards and angles, regardless of their sex.

    If you’re not saying what you’re saying is correct, then how is it worth talking about? It sounds like nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,120 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    I didn't say you're a feminist, I merely used the hive mind analogy to prove my point. You seemed to believe your response to be was proof of your viewpoint. Not all women are bothered by this behaviour.

    You also seem to be imagining an impossible Utopia where everyone behaves within very narrow parameters.

    Both men and women act like louts, not all, but some. Both grope others, assault others physically and sexually, shout abuse etc. If you think calling out an asshole will change their behaviour by all means fight the good fight. If anything a reaction will only encourage them.

    I'm not responsible for the behaviour of others and I'm not going to dignify an asshole with the response he probably wants. So maybe if the next woman, "brave" or not, ignored him, and the woman after that, and the woman after that ad infinitum he'd realise he was wasting his time.

    Talking to him calmly, explaining the error of his ways, or lashing out like a fishwife won't alter his behaviour.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah, because ignoring the problem up until now has made it go away.

    Frankly, that all sounds a lot like passing the buck to me. "Let someone else deal with it. I'm not bothered."

    Fair enough. We know where you stand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,120 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah, because ignoring the problem up until now has made it go away.

    When has it been ignored over the last 30-40 years? Society has boundaries on behaviour, which is why we all learn manners, and politeness as we grow up, with most people adhering to them. Groping women, harassment, etc hasn't been accepted in society for a rather long time. It's not as if these problems were ignored, it was just the case of how do you enforce such social norms on those who refuse to conform?

    I think the point being made is that you call these people out on their behaviour, but realistically, does that actually stop them from continuing that behaviour later with others? I doubt that it will. The people who are rude, aggressive, etc do so for their own reasons, and rationale. Not by the rationale that the rest of us live by. Sure, some people will behave that way out of ignorance, or simply that they weren't thinking at that given moment, learning/realising that they were being out-of-line and adjusting, but for those people who regularly are rude/aggressive/etc will continue being that way in the face of others condemnation.

    Last night, I was in the smoking area with a female friend of mine who was quite drunk. Another woman came in, who was obviously drunk, sat down opposite us, and started verbally abusing my female friend calling her handicapped. A guy in the room, intervened by telling her to stop, and she escalated the dispute by pushing him, and demanding that he fight her so that she could "teach him a lesson". She was playing on the fact that she was a woman, and could use that status to justify her own aggressive behaviour. Now... we both know that her behaviour was unacceptable.. both in insulting my female friend but also by resorting/encouraging violence, but any attempt to point out what she was doing, simply escalated or maintained the level of aggression. The only way to diffuse the aggression was to leave, and attempt to avoid that person thereafter.

    The point being that pointing out the rude or aggressive behaviour of the guys who behave this way would likely have the same result, justifying in their own minds that what they're doing is acceptable.

    So.. it comes back to how do you enforce acceptable social norms on people who refuse to conform?

    And this is not about about letting it go, or leaving it to someone else to deal with. This is about doing more than complaining about it... What are realistic and practical solutions to the situation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭helto


    Nearly every post there you mention you're a woman. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. 😀



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Well i have it and two of the leading politicians of this Country were involved...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    You just waffle on about who is doing what... when it come to resolving something you be missing...



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,120 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    Not the first time I've been accused of pretending to be a woman. It seems that some can't accept the fact that some women don't view themselves as downtrodden victims.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,120 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    What did you do? Have you covertly followed their lives to verify their behaviour has changed around everyone?

    And how many is "more"?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,488 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I’m not going to risk my health and wellbeing to be some night in shining armour for a total stranger…who might even end up turning on me as has been known to happen …

    if some coked / pissed up scumbag is knocking a few slaps into a girl I’ll call the Gardai, that’s what we pay them for and that would be the end of my civic duty….she ends up with injuries, broken wrist, missing teeth, that’s on the guy who she’s with, not any of the rest of us..

    Dublin city is now a dangerous and violent kip….fact… Until we as a society , sorry no, the criminal justice system can get a grip on the amount of coke heads, knives and general idiot knuckle dragging violent scumbag artists that has proliferated us and these absolute urchins who are teflon, thanks to our criminal injustice system…

    ” hi, corner of Aston Quay & O’Connell Bridge, guy 6’1 red jacket assaulting girl, black coat, blonde hair…”.. off I go….

    Not worth the hassle….or the risk… not going to put my family in a position where they need to revisit me in hospital or even a morgue.

    in 2020 there were 2286 knife crimes in Dublin alone.. 6 a day or 1 every 4 hours… you only need to get unlucky once.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭helto


    Men pretending to be women online is nothing new.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,120 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject




  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭MarkEadie


    A very common viewpoint and not surprising considering your opinions on other issues.

    If the girl was your sister or some relative I'm sure you'd rather have someone intervene in some way before she gets hurt and everyone would want the same. That doesn't mean going over and physically interacting. A few months ago I was walking home late one night and a very drunk girl was being accosted by a guy who was being too forceful. This was probably about 5am. He had her up against a wall. She was saying she wasn't interested and wanted to go. I was about 50 yards away and shouted over "Is everything OK!". The guy then stopped and they both went in opposite directions and that was it. I'm not claiming to be some hero, I think most people would do the same. It was on Castle St. which is very dimly lit and had nobody else around. You could call the guards but it could easily be too late by the time they arrive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,488 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    id personally rather the law was a deterrent…. That a person in the situation assaulting someone would be efficiently arrested, charged, brought before a judge, found guilty and then… an appropriate custodial sentence was applied to them…regardless of their history…

    I wouldn’t be blaming anyone apart from the perpetrator… the fact that you would says a lot..

    all very well asking strangers to do what our Gardai often can not and will not do… but I’m not of a mind to end up in an ambulance or body bag to support the wellbeing of strangers….



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,951 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    If their objective by doing that is to discredit women, that's a bit sly.

    I do believe though if a man or woman declares they are giving their opinion as a man or woman, then I dont see any reason not to accept that.

    Post edited by anewme on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    what info you want ... would be allowed here... documents names etc...



  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭helto


    For sure but what can you do? It will always happen on anonymous platforms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,951 ✭✭✭✭anewme



    For the most part, it is really people's own business and does not matter as its an anonymous forum and maybe that suits people.

    But if its deliberate to stir the pot, then its a different ball game. I really dont think that most people would say they are coming from one perspective if they are not. I think they would just say nothing.

    Not much you can do at all. Just dont react to the trolls maybe?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,395 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I wasn’t feeding them. Don’t twist my words please.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,951 ✭✭✭✭anewme



    You were victim blaming a woman who was viciously murdered, saying it was her own fault. That's what you were doing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,926 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You claimed to have written proof that what I said about the status of the Family according to the Irish Constitution was incorrect. Just for the sake of clarity, here’s what I was referring to -


    ARTICLE 41

    1     1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

    2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

    ARTICLE 42

    1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.


    I figured you might be leaning towards Article 42A concerning children’s rights -


    ARTICLE 42A

    1 The State recognises and affirms the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children and shall, as far as practicable, by its laws protect and vindicate those rights.

    2     1° In exceptional cases, where the parents, regardless of their marital status, fail in their duty towards their children to such extent that the safety or welfare of any of their children is likely to be prejudicially affected, the State as guardian of the common good shall, by proportionate means as provided by law, endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.

    2° Provision shall be made by law for the adoption of any child where the parents have failed for such a period of time as may be prescribed by law in their duty towards the child and where the best interests of the child so require.

    3 Provision shall be made by law for the voluntary placement for adoption and the adoption of any child.

    4     1° Provision shall be made by law that in the resolution of all proceedings—

    i      brought by the State, as guardian of the common good, for the purpose of preventing the safety and welfare of any child from being prejudicially affected, or

    ii      concerning the adoption, guardianship or custody of, or access to, any child,

    the best interests of the child shall be the paramount consideration.


    And here’s what I said originally, which you said you had written proof is incorrect -


    We do have a proper society, and we have a proper Irish Constitution too which recognises the social unit of the Family as the primary and fundamental educator of children.


    Apparently you have something else entirely in mind which you wish to offer as evidence that what I said regarding the status of the Family in the Irish Constitution is incorrect.

    Weird hill to want to die on, but have at it!



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,395 ✭✭✭Jequ0n




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I have absolute proof of what i say... come and see for yourself...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭MarkEadie


    It is an attempt at being sly but a poor one. Usually the person has not got the intellect to be consistent with the image they are trying to portray and it quickly becomes abundantly clear that they are trolling.



This discussion has been closed.
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