How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

I agree with you on both counts. I don't think you can appease the unionists given the very nature if what it is that is important to them.

Having said that over time they will die out and in an integrated all Ireland economy that is part of the EU we will IMHO end up better off in time.

One of the biggest flaws in nationalist and republican thinking over the last century is that almost no one has any idea what a united Ireland might look like once it's achieved. I remember watching a documentary about the Border Campaign in the 50s and one of the volunteers was asked about the IRA's thinking at the time. Same as ever, get the British out - and once that happened "everything would be right with the world". As if Irish history would just come to an end once unity was achieved. Part of that whole attitude is the sheer lack of knowledge most Nationalist people have about Northern Unionists, how averse they are to losing their British identity, how determined they are to maintain their position. Throughout the Troubles unionists never seemed to even figure in their thinking. That utter ignorance would certainly have doomed a united Ireland had it ever happened in the last hundred years.

Nowadays there is a bit more awareness thankfully but it is painfully clear that a United Ireland will probably end up satisfying very few people with the amount of compromises that will have to be made. If they aren't made, you're effectively excluding the former Unionist community from having any say over the new Irish state. Loads of things will have to change, the political system will be transformed. Symbols being such a big thing in Northern Ireland means that a lot of our symbols down here will have to change too, or will have to be awkwardly paired with something else. Nationalists will probably get a nasty awakening when they realise how much they will have to concede.

In my heart of hearts I would support a United Ireland and I can see a United Ireland politically functioning after a lot of effort. But my worry is that Ireland will end up like Canada or Belgium. Countries with two communities that fundamentally do not interact and struggle to co-exist. Every political decision will be subject to huge compromise to make everyone happy. Both communities on the island will largely keep to themselves (although at least in our case there's no language barrier). One side (the ex-unionists) will feel downtrodden and excluded, the other (the former Republic) will feel like it's giving away too much and that they're pampering Northerners. Despite all that's often said about Ireland, as it stands it is culturally a very unitary state in European terms. Having this long-running division in our political system and the consequences of it will be a shock to a lot of Nationalists once it's all settled.

Fionn, I thought I addressed this point earlier, but here goes.

"(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."

Here is the relevant extract from the GFA. It is no great leap of logic to point out that a truly inclusive Republican state has to incorporate elements of its various identities into its nature. In essence, this is what Sinn Fein more spuriously seeks in the North with the Irish Language Act, this is what we have done by recognising the minority Traveller identity in law. However, in my opinion, in line with the subject of this thread, we will have to go much further than a token language act and equality law to meet the requirements of that clause of the GFA. The Irish State has to accept their birthright to be British. If it is a republican state, in the true meaning of republicanism (not the insular Irish version) it has to do more than accept.

Bit what is it ?

How can we integrate an intangible idea ?

I can see no issue with those currently holding a UK passport, to continue holding one if they so desire.

Any new applications (such as offspring being entitled to a passport) would be a matter for the UK government as they are the ones who issue the passports.

We would need to give those UK passport holders full voting rights like the Irish have in the UK and I would have no problem with that.

We could also keep 2 international soccer teams and leagues if NI so wish. Although I would love to see a single league unification or no.

It will be a shock to some but it is coming. Numbers are heading that way soon.

Problems created by partition to be replaced by problems created by a United Ireland. All we end up doing is changing the disgruntled party. We have had peace for 24 years but no reconciliation.

When Nationalists were fighting for what they believed in, a war lasting 29 years happened. But when Unification happens, the Unionists will just accept it ? and if not, they will be dealt with very quickly. And who will be dealing with it, An Garda Siochana, the Irish Army ?

What part of your plan for UI makes you so sure that the Unionists won’t recommence the war.

I do find it amusing your idea that the British public will put pressure on the Unionists. Since when has anything in Ireland remotely engaged the general British public. If they didn’t have any issues with the DUP holding the whip in Theresa May’s government, a poll in some foreign land won’t bother them.

What comes across in these posts from the United Ireland campaigners is that it must happen, no matter what, and any issues/concerns is scaremongering or the concerns have no merit whatsoever.

i remember the hunger strikers, the daily news each morning at 8am of another killing, another bomb under a car.

I do sincerely hope that your blind faith and devotion to a United Ireland doesn’t lead us down the garden path………and this feels like a roll of the dice rather than some well designed plan.

Time will tell

i would say no it wasn't much better but it was still the least worst option until the grip of the church began to loosen meaning the ROI became and is now miles better.

there was no policy to drive jews, protestants etc from the ROI all though certainly some did face discrimination which was disgraceful, unlike NI where the policy was to drive out catholics/nationalists by any means.

Op.

The answer to your question is clearly illustrated in this thread.

You’ve got ardent pro-unification Nationalists in one corner saying, no matter what it takes or how it’s done, unification will succeed based on the romantic notion that all Irish people want a United Ireland.

In the other corner are the people who populate the real world, who understand that support or rejection of unification will be based on what it means directly to the electorate both sides of the border, cost.

And the people in both corners have no consideration for what it will actually mean to the people most affected, the inhabitants of Northern Ireland. So, that is why the people who want to retain NIs link to the UK, will fight the hardest, shout the loudest and make damn sure that every single voter in the South knows that it is going to cost us each a tonne of money. And once that starts to hit home, there is no way of getting that **** back in the Goose. So, no, there is no way of integrating Unionists into a unified Ireland because they neither want to be, nor will be forced to be, their whole identity and life is based on the Union, same way the Nationalists have identified with ROI for the last 100 yrs. It takes a rare breed of stupidity to think just by unifying Ireland, that Unionists will resign themselves to being Irish and forget they are British, in the same way it was stupid to think Nationalists in the North should by now accept they live in the UK.

That is why I have thought, since the free movement of people accross the border came into effect, why not leave the UK to support/deal with NI, does it really matter if they are governed from Dublin? The Nationalists still think of themselves as Irish, the Unionists still think of themselves as British, and if it’s going to costs, 79% of people down here don’t give a **** what either thinks, we are not paying for it.

Fair play to her for admitting it, there's a couple of posters on this thread who are still in denial.

If you feel it is that inconsequential to Unionists, why did Nationalists in NI never just accept they are now living in a country that is now part of the UK? They could still be Irish after all.

I’m not worried about it, and I won’t until the referendum happens and I think how much it is going to cost me and what affect it will have on services here. Then I’ll vote no.

Like the pro-Brexit fools across the water you think you'll get to keep everything just as it is if a no vote is returned in the south, you might want to think that through a bit because if there one thing that's a certainty it's that you will not.

Patitionists will not inherit the state in its current form. They will need to come up with a vision for a permanently partitioned country with a new anthem, new flag, new constitution, new symbols, a rejection of Republican history, disassociation with the 1916 Proclamation and so on. In other words, everything partitionists think they'll get to retain they'll lose, what they'll gain is a terrible political schism, and northern part of the country with a huge section in the south crying betrayal.

I would like to think the sheer idiocy, and implications, of the electorate retaining partition via a referendum, should it happen, will be laid bare well in advance.