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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    If another country, say in the Caribbean, or even in W Europe, should have wanted to join a defense alliance with Russia at any time after WWII right up to today, do you expect the US would have let it happen?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A former general has attacked President Putin over his military threats to Ukraine, in one of the strongest anti-war statements within Russia yet.

    Leonid Ivashov, 78, called on Putin to resign over the “artificial” conflict he had manufactured as a “distraction tactic” from mounting domestic problems.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,433 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Outside of a fiction based argument, can you honestly see that ever happening??? The big problem with Russia ( under the present management ) is that adjacent countrys fear Russia,,, they want no hand act or part of it, and thats why they joined NATO in the first place. Why would they want to join a state where 1/3 of all pregnancies end in abortion??? Seems thats the only kind of meaning full vote the women have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Luckily for you, we have the example of the Warsaw Pact, which ended up spending most of its time trying to crush internal social movements in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, as well as keeping the DDR firmly under its boot with a million troops. The Warsaw Pact was a product of Kremlin paranoia, ostensibly designed to protect against some sort of notional Western conventional military threat that never materialized and was never real in the first instance - and its actual function was to keep Europe east of the Elbe under the yoke of Moscow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,571 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    You're projecting your own views onto me. I've not said Russia is good.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    Whataboutery and deflection there.

    How would Finland joining NATO be a threat to "Russia's security"?

    Why should Finland not have the right to be in NATO?

    Finland is in the EU. Is that a "threat to Russia's security"?

    Estonia is in NATO. Is that a "threat to Russia's security"?

    Or is it a threat to Russia's idea that it should be able to invade other countries without consequence?

    Do you think Estonia should view Russia as a threat to its security, given that the Soviet Union invaded and annexed Estonia and the other Baltic countries and Put them under their jackboot for the next 50 years?

    Do you think Ukraine should view Russia as a threat to its security, given that, you know, Russia actually invaded Ukraine in 2014, still occupies the part it took, and has waged war against Ukraine for the last eight years?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,571 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Maybe, but the Crimean water issues are regional. The costs of conquering the NCC are national. I can't imagine a scenario where they even come close.

    As for worsening conditions in Ukraine to influence the people - it seems counter productive. History has shown that civilians are willing to ensure suffering from external sources, up to and including nightly bombing raids, whilst still backing the leadership.

    As it is, Russia doesn't have to destabilise Ukraine. Biden and the US are doing that instead despite the pleas from Ukraine to stop talking up a war.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    🤣

    Yeah, you've only spent the thread absolving Putin and Russia for responsibility for this crisis and trying to pin it on the US. Pull the other one Sand. You lack credibility.

    This thread would be far smoother for you if you conceded you're an apologist for Putin's invasions, further threats of force, and coercion of Ukraine.

    The pretense that you're even-handed is a great big glowing conceit that nobody is buying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭paul71


    Spheres of influence!!


    Some people honestly think it is 1912.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Isn't that what happened in Cuba though?

    Yurt is all talk of a country's sovereignty and ability to plot it's own course, but that comes with a big BUT (so long as those choices don't run counter to the US's foreign policy goals).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,433 ✭✭✭jmreire


    The chances are that he's not the only one either....Mihail Khodorkovsky has said that with all legal opposition now driven underground, Putin does not know how much real support he has, and is therefore afraid of actually starting a war, but when weighted against appearing weak if he does not follow through on it, he will go to war, unless a face saving scenario will emerge. He also said that in the past Putin was a man who would listen to others, or exercise some degree of caution, after 20 years in absolute power, he is convinced of his own infallibility, and is quite capable of carrying out ill judged acts. A vertb dangerous mand indeed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,433 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Cuban crisis,, I was a school boy back then, gut I still remember it, even if it was 60 odd years ago, a different time, and different circumstances. But how come now nearly all of the ex Connunist states want to disengage with Russia, and engage with the west? Something has to be fundamentally wrong here, and that wrong is on the Russian side. Someone posted a pic of Biden saying "South America is our back yard" ( or maybe it was their front yard,,,, ) difference between the US and Russia, is that given half a chance, most of South America would move ( and are actively trying to ) into America,,,,but on the opposide side of the world, former Russian states are trying to distance themselves from Russia, and move to the west......now why is that do you think?? And Russia is actively trying to hold on to these states, by hook, crook, or military invasion , or threat thereto. And the US is enforcing is borders to keep people out???



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Sounds like you haven't read a single thing about the Winter War and then Finland joining the Axis the resultant fallout.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    I've seen it said that the dominant emotion Putin exhibited yesterday was anger. Anger stems from a feeling of being weak, and outmanoeuvred. When dictators feel angry and cornered, due to their own misbehaviour, they are very dangerous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    You completely avoided every point I made in my response to you. Pure Russian propaganda, with extra vodka. Tiny countries are apparently the warmongers, and the biggest country in the world with its army already occupying part of a much smaller neighbour and camped on the rest of its border, ready to invade, are apparently the threatened.

    Pure fantasy.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its even more dangerous when former soviet generals starting to be concerned

    I hope Tsar Putins era is soon over,before more people get hurt



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    The point is, Cuba doesn't have the right to choose it's own leaders in a popular revolution against a US backed tyrant. Cuba doesn't have the right to organize it's economy along communist theory, and doesn't have the right to join or be included in a military alliance that is contrary to the foreign policy goals of the US.

    The price for trying? Invasion, meddling, and 60 years of the most punitive sanctions possible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You won't find me arguing for the Cuban embargo. If America's foreign policy successes are many, this is one of its failures. Luckily, one is free to speak and criticize it. George McGovern holds that the embargo only persists because of Cuban exiles in Florida being such a powerful political constituency no party wishes to p*ss off.

    But is this your stance? Cuba is a pretext and a moral out for every autocrat and slimebag to intimidate, coerce and invade their neighbours? But, much like everything in this thread from the Putin fanclub, it's a diversion and attempt to muddy the moral and ethical waters. Cuba has f*ckall to do with the topic at hand, and you well know it.

    Wrong is wrong, call it out as you see it and slippery moral equivalency, when faced with the prosepect of a thuggish war, is a refuge for cowards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    For the last 63 years the only people who have ensured the people of Cuba do not have the right to choose their own leaders are the Cuban regime.

    And neither can the Russian people choose their own leaders.

    The people of Ukraine can.

    Russia wants to remove that right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    It is the US sanctions that keep the regime in place. It was pretty much the same with Saddam, and heck i'd throw Iran in there too.

    Punitive sanctions hurt ordinary people, and similar to Irish history, the people themselves know who is the real source of their pain.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Well, afair they tried their utmost to stop Cuba doing so (edit as mentioned above), but that failed in the end.

    You are murdering your own arguments with the comparisons you make between Russia's Ukraine policy and the US though.

    Do you think what the US has done to Cuba, esp. in past decades was justified as part of a geopolitical strategy of some sort? From your postings I really doubt that very much. As one who likes to show us maps of all the US bases around the globe it was "Evil US Imperialism" TM right? If so how can you possibly excuse what Putin has already dished out to Ukraine and what he may do in future? Even if current tension ends up being sabre rattling it is not justified. Putin's Russia is the hawk and the imperialist in this situation.

    It's a bit sad watching Irish people showing understanding for (or even praising) the likes of Putin/Russia because they just seem to hate the US govt. or US foreign policy so much, it is like they are following football teams or something (!?)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Snooker Loopy


    Ah yeah, everybody else is always entirely to blame for the woes of Russia's allies, the regimes which control them would never have anything to with it at all.

    I think any self respecting Irish person who knows their history understands which of Ukraine and Russia is analogous to Ireland and which is analogous to the British empire.

    Hint: it isn't Russia which is analogous to Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭paul71


    Sounds to me that you ignore the fact the the causes of 2 (or 3) world wars being stupid territorial claims all over Europe have been resolved by countries finally decide to grow up and respect territorial sovereignty.

    Europe, France/Germany, Hungary/Slovakia, Italy/Australia, Denmark/Germany, Poland/Germany, Czech Republic/Germany, Italy/Germany, Belgium/France, Ireland/UK, Spain/UK, Poland Czech, Hungary/Romania, Greece/Turkey.

    There is an exception to that list of countries who have grown up and decided that the cost of pursuing stupid 1000 year old territorial disputes in Europe. That country is Russia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Lovely. Now that you've got your off-topic opinion on sanctions off your chest, what do you reckon about Putin's coercion of Ukraine, his previous incursions, annexation poisoning of a President and threat of invasion? Without, if you could, reference to a third country to justify it?

    Because you're so far off topic, you may as well be in Havana at the moment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    It is the responsibility of Ukraine to navigate it's new (relatively speaking) independence successfully. In their particular circumstances with their long history intertwined with Russia and the USSR, the location of nukes, access to the Black Sea, Crimea etc etc that means they probably need to keep the Russian bear on-side.

    That is their mission if they want to maintain their borders intact as an independent country. That Russia is allegedly on their doorstep with a large militarily force suggests to me that they have failed in that respect.

    That is not to say Russia is blameless.

    Imagine Dev siding with the Axis powers at time when Britain was getting owned in the sea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,061 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    That general should avoid going near any windows in the near future, for the good of his health.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,433 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Seems that they do not have the right to democratic elections now either, after deposing the "Capitalists" .. The theory of communism may have been the best theory ever, but in practice, it was an open door to corruption and abuse. And thats why it failed, and is still failing even in Cuba.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    That's a p*ss weak defence of Russian behavior and I think you know. You've adopted the morality of the gun and coercion, and are blaming the Ukrainians for daring to orientate themselves economically towards the west.

    It would be helpful (mostly for yourself) if you admitted it. NATO is not the Axis powers, does not behave in any manner equivalent to the Axis powers, so your comparison - again diversionary - is wildly off-topic and an insult to the post-war peace we all enjoy.

    The only failure here is Putin's failure to swallow that post-USSR Russia is a radically denuded place economically, and he's failed to make it a country that's worth looking towards. And that's on multiple dimensions. Politically, it's an autocratic kleptocracy; economically it's high on its own supply of energy and has spunked the spoils that should make it wealthy, and it's foreign relations with neighbours is a doctrine of coercion and threats.

    Putin, and his ageing circle of late-Soviet thieves have failed their country, and are acting out towards neighbours who've found themselves new partners that offer them a future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭paul71


    He is 78 years old, I think that may be part of the reason he has spoken, perhaps he does not care what Putins thugs do to him.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,356 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    So you don't think the 60 years of US Sanctions, in addition to the US getting other countries to embargo them, has anything at all to do with the state of the economy in Cuba?



This discussion has been closed.
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