Are the attempts to stop the British government amnesty for the troubles futile

blanch152 · 07-02-2022 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595527#Comment_118595527

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/how-many-more-men-like-pearse-mcauley-are-living-amongst-us-34262523.html

Well, if they are anything like their good republican comrade Pearse, their families and friends are probably breathing sighs of relief that they aren't at those family occasions.

"Rather than recognising and managing these problems, as regular armies do, SF/IRA turns a blind eye to the implications of having large numbers of people steeped in extreme violence returned to the community without any safeguards. Instead of seeking to understand, they prefer to simplistically eulogise those who've done terrible things, as if past, present and future can be so easily distinguished.

In honouring Pearse McAuley when he did time for Garda McCabe's brutal killing, republicans might argue that they had a duty of care to one of their own; but they have an equally onerous, some might say heavier, duty to those whose well-being might be harmed by men like him.

Instead, they wash their hands of responsibility. It's tempting to ask what did they expect? A more pertinent question is: knowing now what they know about Pearse McAuley, will they be more cautious about whitewashing others like him, given the strong possibility that similar cases might happen again?

The answer, disturbingly, is in the negative. If that means other former Volunteers' wives and children have to suffer to maintain the rose-tinted myth of the struggle, then so be it. The cause is always more important than the casualties."

blanch152 · 07-02-2022 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595633#Comment_118595633

Let's ask why we haven't convicted anyone on foot of the Smithwick Tribunal. It is there in black and white, there was collusion.

The Stevens inquiries led to many convictions, Smithwick to none. And you think Smithwick is the only example? We have never had the equivalent of a Stevens 3 inquiry into collusion with the PIRA. It is long overdue.

Brucie Bonus · 07-02-2022 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594240#Comment_118594240

The British state want the amnesty. Everyone else doesn't. Surely something that has all Irish and UK affiliates in agreement is good enough to discuss without bringing in personal bias and divisive deflection?

Let's even concentrate on the civilians the British murdered. No justice for the families because the British state wants an amnesty. Shocking right?

It really shows the true nature at work. Nobody or NI itself is as important as covering up murders carried out by their state.

Fandymo · 07-02-2022 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595664#Comment_118595664

What the fook has Pearse McAuley, who served his entire prison term for the murder of Det. Jerry McCabe, got to do with the british government offering amnesty to murderers who were on their payroll??

Harryd225 · 07-02-2022 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595664#Comment_118595664

"Like regular armies do". What regular armies? How many British soldiers have been brought to justice for the blatant obvious murders of innocent civilians? When have the British state held MI5 or British army intelligence to account for colluding in the murders of hundreds of innocent people with loyalist paramilitaries?

They never have, they do the exact opposite, frantically try to cover it up, as the RTE documentary on collusion a few years ago concluded that "collusion was committed on a large scale and with impunity. There is clear evidence that points to collusion being not only practice but policy; it was planned and directed with full political authority”. This can in no way be compared to Gardai collusion involving a tiny few rogue members of the Gardai in relation to the murders of 2 or 3 heavily armed combatants.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/collusion-rte-documentary-2163928-Jun2015/%3famp%3D1

jm08 · 07-02-2022 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565933#Comment_118565933

That is just pure nonsense. The letters of comfort were not amnesties. The letters supplied information that they would not be prosecuted because they did not have sufficient evidence to do so. This is what the letters said.

"You would not therefore face prosecution for any such offence should you return to the United Kingdom. That decision is based on the evidence currently available. Should such fresh evidence arise - and any statement made by you implicating yourself in... may amount to such evidence - the matter may have to be reconsidered."

As you probably know now, that when the case arose about John Downey for the Hyde Park bombings, he was let off then. Since then, he has been extradited to the UK to face charges and is shortly due before the courts. Think there was a delay because of Covid. Perhaps this court case will bury that fake 'facts' from now on.

If you don't believe me, try the BBC which will prevent you making such nonsense in future: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-26376541

So, just to clarify - if there is evidence the ''On the Runs'' will be prosecuted.

blanch152 · 07-02-2022 7:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595825#Comment_118595825

Well, at least they are honest about it, unlike the Irish who have never prosecuted anyone following the findings of the Smithwick Tribunal and never looked into the other alleged cases. We just turn an Irish blind eye.

Harryd225 · 07-02-2022 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596598#Comment_118596598

You must be on the wind up.

blanch152 · 07-02-2022 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596604#Comment_118596604

Have I missed something? Where there prosecutions following the Smithwick Tribunal?

Harryd225 · 07-02-2022 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596598#Comment_118596598

Who do you think we should prosecute? The report found that an individual rogue member of the Gardai tipped off the IRA, they couldn't find out who this person was.

How can this be compared to the obvious state institutionalised collusion involving the intelligence services that went on in Northern Ireland? Or how can it be compared to the failure to prosecute state forces who blatantly and obviously killed innocent people. Instead of prosecuting soldiers who committed mass murder against innocent civilians some of which were children, the Queen instead awards them with medals for their "good work".

Brucie Bonus · 07-02-2022 8:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596635#Comment_118596635

Its not for comparison, it's for deflecting from. Some people will not allow a discussion on the murders carried out by the British state even if the victims are innocent civilians. They can't get past their own one sided hate.

Fandymo · 07-02-2022 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596598#Comment_118596598

Who could they prosecute, using what evidence? The tribunal judge himself stated that there was “no smoking gun” in the case. Should they have made up evidence like their British colleagues had for for?

Miniegg · 07-02-2022 11:32pm

Blanch152 - This amnesty is an attempt by the British Government to legalize the mass murder of completely innocent civilians who were going about their lives in their community, or involved in a peaceful civil rights protest.

Both Catholics and Protestants were murdered in cold blood, as were British Army Veterans, not that it matters who or what the people were. This is not a sectarian issue, nor is it anything to do with terrorist groups on either side.

What happened, and is happening, is terrifying. It could have untold repercussions for every British Citizen, whether they realize it or not. The UK is a very divided nation - who knows who may come into power years from now.

This should not stand, and British voters on all sides should not let it stand. It just so happens that mainland British voters mostly have no idea this happened, and a small section of voters in Northern Ireland tacitly support what happened, or believe "there is no smoke without fire".

I understand that you dislike the IRA and Sinn Fein, but the only actors in this are the British Army, The British Government, the innocent people who were murdered, and their families. There are plenty of threads you can go on to air your views about the things you hate.

It's not right that your prejudices, which are irrelevant, should kill discussion on this thread about something so important.

Fandymo · 08-02-2022 2:02pm

Mass collusion by the RUC with loyalist scum.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0208/1278408-psni-ruc-collusive-behaviour-report/

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599794#Comment_118599794

Vice news have a good YouTube video on another massacre a couple of years later, it goes into detail on how the British state armed the loyalist paramilitaries and were controlling them as part of some proxy psychological warfare against the IRA. The most successful ruthless killers in the loyalist organisations were all agents, the worst of which, Robin Jackson killed about 150 people while at the same time working with other loyalists who were also working for MI5. The higher ups in the security forces got Robin Jackson off charges of murder numerous times.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D03jc5tWACKo&ved=2ahUKEwit37H_mfD1AhW0QUEAHczmA8oQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1PN7149v3DAJ0E69NrUMk7

Brucie Bonus · 13-02-2022 2:12pm

Interesting article.

100 years anniversary today of the Weaver Street massacre were children from surrounding street were rounded up and had a bomb thrown at them. Then they were sprayed with bullets.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/why-don-t-we-remember-the-weaver-street-massacre-in-belfast-1.4797959

One child noticed one of the men crouching and hurling an object towards the girls. It was a bomb, thrown into the middle of the girls skipping, with the intention of maximising casualties. The explosion was heard all over Belfast. Shrapnel and lumps of metal flew in every direction. The bomb was followed by a spray of bullets, preventing the parents from running to help their children. Once the gunfire stopped, mothers and fathers ran to their children, who were lying bleeding, crying with agonised screams.

All shades of nationalist opinion were appalled by the bombing. Michael Collins, chairman of the Free State provisional government, informed Churchill that “the bomb was thrown deliberately among the children by some person purporting to uphold the side which Sir James Craig upholds”. The Catholic bishop of Down and Connor, Joseph MacRory, wrote to British prime minister David Lloyd George days later requesting that the British military protect the Catholics of Belfast. Nationalist-leaning newspapers increasingly referred to the “pogrom against Catholics” in Belfast after the bombing and wrote in harrowing terms of how Catholics were being “exterminated”, in many cases by “uniformed assassins”.

Harryd225 · 15-02-2022 2:36pm

A bipartisan US Congress resolution calling on the British Government to scrap plans to grant amnesty for all Troubles-era killings is expected to pass, according to reports.

A total of 35 Congressmembers have co-sponsored the resolution that has been referred to the House Foreign Affairs Committee, which also calls for the full implementation of the Northern Ireland Protocol and the prosecution of British soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday.

Britain is never going to prosecute it's soldiers or intelligence services for actions commited decades ago by holding them to the standards of today, the Queen awarded the soldiers of Bloody Sunday medals for their "good work" and what the intelligence services were up to was institutionalised at the time.

Personally I think we should move on from trying to get prosecutions of which very few on all sides, if any, are going to be successfully prosecuted. The main problem I have with this amnesty is that the British government and MI5 are trying to make all inquiries and inquests into the troubles illegal, they are trying to bury the past and stop the influx of information regarding their collusion with loyalists that has been coming out in the last ten years or so.

What we need to focus on is setting up a truth and reconciliation process, the British are the only ones who are opposed to this.

Harryd225 · 15-02-2022 2:52pm

You cannot have an amnesty without truth and reconciliation. This is exactly what the British government and MI5 want with this amnesty, they want to put an end to all inquiries and inquests into the troubles to bury the past and assure the truth never comes out. This is completely unacceptable.

Harryd225 · 16-02-2022 10:28pm

The UK’s Security Service, MI5, has been forced to disclose top secret files to an investigation into historical operations in Northern Ireland for the first time, it has emerged.

The revelations by the British chief of an investigation into an alleged spy at the heart of the IRA come as an influential US congressman denounced British government plans for an amnesty for those involved in crimes during the Troubles as a “cover-up”.

He also told Congress he had made successful legal challenges to MI5 and was getting fresh information on crimes that had never been seen by previous police heads, including three official government inquiries led by the former Met commissioner John Stevens.

“We’ve recovered records that other investigations, previously commissioned, were not provided access to. We have access into MI5, into the military and into the PSNI, direct access. It’s something I insisted upon, having spoken to a lot of those who previously led legacy investigations,” he said.

To be honest I wonder how important these files really are, on the last episode of the BBC secret history of the troubles at the very end there is a secret recording of an MI5 meeting where they state that they removed all the sensitive information in the small amount of files they agreed to hand over to John Stalker to investigate collusion with loyalists, I have no doubt that MI5 will simply remove all the sensitive information before they hand the files over.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/16/mi5-secret-files-northern-ireland-operation-kenova-us-hearing-amnesty

Harryd225 · 17-02-2022 9:45am

Apparently the Government is considering changes to its plans for the amnesty, sources have indicated.

The US commission is preparing to put pressure on the UK to call a halt to its proposals, which include a ban on future prosecutions of military veterans and former paramilitaries for Troubles incidents before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement

Influential US congressmen denounced British government plans for an amnesty for those involved in crimes during the Troubles as a “cover-up”.

Fasano · 17-02-2022 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118634757#Comment_118634757

So would you support an amnesty if there was a truth and reconciliation process?

to me, this seems to be the logical way forward, but no one seems to be calling for it.

political analyst · 23-02-2022 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118644947#Comment_118644947

Although the Telegraph (London) is behind a paywall, this tweet gives the gist of the change of plan.

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1490435370244354052

political analyst · 23-02-2022 3:52pm

What is taking the High Court in Belfast so long to decide on the appeal by some Bloody Sunday relatives against the PPS's decisions to drop the case against Soldier F and not to prosecute other soldiers who were involved?

In the aftermath of the collapse of the Joe McCann case, do relatives of other people killed by soldiers in 1971 and 1972 really believe that there is a realistic prospect of trials taking place, never mind convictions, in those cases?!

Brucie Bonus · 24-02-2022 10:47pm

I think if the IRA/UVF/UDA/BA etc. are held equally to the same standard it would be a start.

We can then look at anything considered a war crime or crime and try tackle it from there. Calling a killing from one side a murder but not another because of 'legitimacy' won't work. Then we need to discuss are we seeking compensation or jail time. Its very complex but we need to start on equal footing. I cannot see the British willing to be held to account, even for murdering their own people. An amnesty of sorts might work if their was acknowledgement and discussion rather than an attempt to sweep it under the carpet.

BonnieSituation · 09-08-2022 6:11pm

Lest we forget that today is the 51st anniversary of the beginning of the massacre of innocent people by the British State at Ballymurphy.

I look forward to the 'both sides' equivocation that will inevitably follow.

maccored · 09-08-2022 6:21pm

the british government will do what they please, and denigrate anyone who gets in their sights. Its like their go to gut reaction on everything these days. HMG will never change, it'll never care and there'll always be those cheering it on from the sidelines. that seems to be the kind of arrogance it thrives on.

Are the attempts to stop the British government amnesty for the troubles futile

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