Energy infrastructure

bk · 07-02-2022 1:26pm

"Until 2030 we can use gas for 20% of annual demand."

FYI, we could use gas for the 20% right up to 2049. It is by 2050 that we need to have moved to net zero.

Of course, we would want to start making the move away from gas gradually between 2030 and 2050, in order to hit the 2050 goal.

Unless of course, we opt to go for for NG + CCS, in which case we could continue to use it beyond 2050.

Not that I'd be in favour of that, I'd prefer we can develop one of the other options then CCS. Plus I'd hope we can make the transition away from gas much sooner then 2050.

This is why all the comments about "what if the wind isn't blowing" or "sun doesn't shine at night" are so misinformed. If the wind isn't blowing, then we just run the gas plants, no threat to our supply. It just means as we have more wind and sun, we run those gas power plants far less often and use vastly less gas then we would otherwise do.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-02-2022 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594487#Comment_118594487

It can free up 1GW elsewhere. A rising tide and all that. And ESB international have been consulting abroad forever.

Sam Russell · 07-02-2022 2:55pm

Is it not better they get their off-shore wind experience in Scotland, and use their newly honed skills here when they are better at it?

We have a ready made base at Moneypoint, with existing grid connections which is where significant off-shore wind should come ashore. However, the east coast might be a better starting point.

RandomViewer · 07-02-2022 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591281#Comment_118591281

You float stuff out without permission or a licence don't be surprised if it's rammed by boats or stolen, you won't have any comeback , just millions of debt and a few tonnes of scrap.

RandomViewer · 07-02-2022 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592912#Comment_118592912

They are looking to build one up here, the dark brown spot in the North West, it can join the 13 windmills that only occasionally turn, so overcast with sea fog and no wind to gale force ,no happy medium

josip · 07-02-2022 6:35pm

With gas prices so high at the moment, there must be a lot of companies like Tricel for whom there is now a viable business case to install a solar roof on their premises.

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2022/0207/1278302-solar-panels/

07-02-2022 10:24pm

Arklow Bank 2, the Sequel, kicking off shortly as SSE put out tenders

Arklow Bank Wind Park Phase 2 is located approximately 6 to 15 kilometres off the coast of Arklow, Co. Wicklow and covers an area approximately 27 kilometres long and 2.5 kilometres wide.

The wind farm will have a maximum export capacity of up to 800 MW and will consist of up to approximately 62 turbines.

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2022/02/07/irish-offshore-wind-farm-seeks-tier-1-contractors/

Looks like 2 tenders

First - The scope of this contract includes fabrication, storage and loadout of monopile, and transition piece if applicable, based wind turbine substructures, including secondary and tertiary steel in accordance with the employer’s requirements and programme.

Second - SSE Renewables is also seeking a contractor to carry out the supply, transport, and installation of the wind farm’s inter-array cable system. The scope of this contract includes responsibility for the design, supply, manufacture, storage, loadout, transportation, installation, burial, protection, testing, and commissioning of the 66 kV array cable system in accordance with the employer’s requirements and programme.

Birdnuts · 08-02-2022 1:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593394#Comment_118593394

Well it hasn't on these islands - again no solar farms were built prior to them getting financial doping via the RESS last year

As for grid solar ever paying its way - evidence from Saudi would not fill one with confidence

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/saudi-outlook-remains-uncertain-after-softbank-pulls-out

Birdnuts · 08-02-2022 1:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593370#Comment_118593370

Again you fail to grasp the reality of the actual economics

https://www.ft.com/content/f3ff7db4-6d9e-11e5-8171-ba1968cf791a

08-02-2022 1:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598095#Comment_118598095

Got anything that's not paywalled?

Markcheese · 08-02-2022 9:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598090#Comment_118598090

Did you read that article birdnuts, I don't think it means what you think it means -

Markcheese · 08-02-2022 9:15am

Incidentally , I don't think you're all wrong (about solar for Ireland ) , wind ,plus solar , plus energy storage , plus interconnectors plus gas ( pipelines ,storage and power stations ) .

And then potentially add in hydrogen production - compression- transport - storage ,storage -de-compression,and power stations -

It all seems a bit much - and I get that no electrical system is simple, they're all layer upon layer , but in an Irish context grid scale solar seems a bit ott ...

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2022 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598469#Comment_118598469

Germany is already getting 9% of electricity of solar and they are rolling out more, on top of the 5.3GW rolled out last year. From the start of the year in the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia car parks with more than 35 spaces will have to be covered with PV, It's beside Holland.

Further south Baden-Württemberg is following Spain's mandatory solar on new roofs route, and from next year on roof renovations.

Running Ireland off solar all year round is crazy. Unless you can store enough energy for half a year or more, which would actually be cheaper than some of the alternatives so not totally crazy.

Running Ireland off solar in the summer would require a lot less storage. And it's displacing fossil fuel all the while.

josip · 08-02-2022 1:09pm

So, because of the seasonality of solar, and the occasional lack of wind, it would seem that the generation technology best suited to making up any shortfall, would be one that had low CAPEX and high OPEX (when it did run), rather than one with high CAPEX and low OPEX. Obviously low CAPEX and low OPEX would be ideal but there isn't a reliable generation technology with those characteristics.

roadmaster · 08-02-2022 1:17pm

I see new gas powered stations have being approved for Athlone and rochfordbridge. I know it would cost money bringing new gas lines but was there no way Shannonbridge and lanesbourgh could have being retrofitted to be gas fired stations since they already have the electrical transmission network in place or is it just cheaper to build on a green field site?

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2022 1:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598095#Comment_118598095

You can't refer to articles that are even a few years old to suggest solar is expensive. (and ignore the politics of that part of the world)

The economics of a solar that would have needed a 30% subsidy at the start of 2018 have been completely reversed. Doubly so if you include the increased price of gas.

The actual economic reality is that Solar power costs fell by 16% last year .. onshore wind dropped 13% and offshore wind by 9% ... In under a decade the cost of large-scale solar power has fallen by more than 80% while onshore wind has fallen by almost 40% and offshore wind has declined by almost 30%.

And economies of scale mean solar will keep getting cheaper. Size of the cells is increasing which less mechanical handling per watt during manufacturing and bigger modules so less handling during installation. Efficiency is also increasing so more watts per m2 which reduces site costs, I'd expect to see more panels with better passive cooling to boost efficiency in hot climates. And the various types of silicon cells have other technologies hot on their heels so plenty of scope for step changes in cost and efficiency.

The trend is for higher voltages which reduces the number of inverters so there's other cost reductions there too.

cnocbui · 08-02-2022 2:52pm

The cost of wind and solar are irrelevant without factoring in the cost of storage. If the unlikely to be reached target of zero CO2 is ever to be achieved, gas as an expensive hole filler and maintainer of the 'cheap' BS ascribed to solar and wind wont be available to try and maintain the illusion.

"The former values average $25/MWh for onshore wind and $27/MWh for utility-scale solar, while the latter values average $42/MWh for coal, $29/MWh for nuclear and $24/MWh for combined cycle gas generation." https://www.lazard.com/media/451893/lazard-releases-annual-levelized-cost-of-energy-storage-and-hyrdogen-analyses-10-28-21.pdf

Oh look gas is cheaper than solar and nuclear is only $2/MWh more expensive than solar, which given the storage issue, actually means it's cheaper.

bk · 08-02-2022 4:31pm

"Oh look gas is cheaper than solar and nuclear is only $2/MWh more expensive than solar, which given the storage issue, actually means it's cheaper."

Only if you completely ignore the impact on the environment and the externalities of global warming and the destruction it will bring!

Of course carbon taxes will mean that gas and other fossil fuels won't stay cheap.

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2022 5:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118600092#Comment_118600092

Hinkley C's discounted strike price is £106.12/MWh. If you remove the Sizewell C discount then the UK has signed up to pay just over 5 times that $29/MWh price ?? In reality that report is using Marginal Costs which makes no sense if you are talking about huge fixed costs when building dams or nuclear or the next to zero marginal costs for hydro or wind or especially solar once the plant is in place.

Also what gas price is that report using ?

Besides storage is cheap. The UK shut down the 41.1TWh Rough gas storage facility to save £75m a year over 10 years.

bk · 08-02-2022 7:02pm

New record for amount of electricity generated was reached on Saturday. 4,584 megawatts, which represented 86% of demand at that time, and 70% of demand throughout a 24 hour period.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0208/1278599-new-record-for-wind-generated-electricity-reached/

Plus government announce a €8Bn investment to bring 500,000 homes up to B2 level or better by 2030:

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2022/0208/1278434-cost-of-living/

eire4 · 08-02-2022 7:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601633#Comment_118601633

I saw that about the new record over the weekend for wind powered electricity. Great to see that.

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2022 7:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599537#Comment_118599537

There's a 100 MW battery at Shannonbridge and there's work on the substation pencilled in.

specialbyte · 08-02-2022 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601633#Comment_118601633

Interesting thing about this event is that there was some curtailment of wind farms during this time period. The grid is currently limited to 75% System Non-Synchronous Penetration (SNSP). That's effectively the amount of renewables allowed on the grid at once. EirGrid are constantly pushing this limit higher but that's the max allowed right now. The reason we were generating 86% of demand from wind if that we were exporting the max amount of power possible to the UK a the time via our two inter-connectors. If the grid was capable of handling higher SNSP or we had more inter-connectors to UK/France then the wind record would have been even higher. Something to look forward to.

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2022 9:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601919#Comment_118601919

If we had more wind then even if the grid couldn't take more than 75% it could take for longer at lower wind speeds.

And if we couldn't increase the 75% asynchronous generation we could use pumped storage to balance it.

Pumped storage turbines spinning in the air and big flywheels can be used as synchronous compensators to stabilise the grid so we will be able to do better than 75%. (this Synchronous Compensator will be the largest of its kind in the world - Moneypoint for Sept this year)

The 700MW Celtic Interconnector is part of an EU interconnectivity project, the one to Cyprus is even longer and Malta is getting a second one. England needs power so the 500MW Greenlink to south Wales. So should have 2.2GW connecting the island soon.

gjim · 08-02-2022 10:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593732#Comment_118593732

I re-read your message and cannot find where you stated that you're talking "specifically about productive land" even once, never mind several times? Are you mixing up my reply with some other?

I've given hard numbers concerning land cover in the country which show how little land is needed to support say 10GW of solar (far more than is planned for 2030) - which is about 0.2% of the countries land. By way of comparison: 60% is used for grazing, 5% is used for crops, 9% used for commercial forestry, 15% is bog.

This illustrates that the SCALE of land needed for solar PV compared to current uses. It's clear the availability of land for solar PV is a non-problem - even if every single one of the 10GW of panels were site on "agricultural" land, this would represent a 0.35% take from the agricultural sector. It's a "problem" invented and touted by climate-change skeptics - like their concern about wind turbines killing birds.

If you're not happy with me providing coarse numbers like this, I'll happily consider a more fine grained break-down of the land cover if you want to provide numbers? Vague claims that "much of it is unsuitable" without any figures are not convincing.

Having a large source of carbon-free, competitively priced electricity/energy available is of huge benefit to the country and economy as a whole. It's frankly bizarre to claim that it just benefits a few "farmers" who don't want to work.

Birdnuts · 09-02-2022 1:39am

"New record for amount of electricity generated was reached on Saturday. 4,584 megawatts, which represented 86% of demand at that time, and 70% of demand throughout a 24 hour period.

Christ - one decent day after months of poor performance and some clowns think it justifies the vast spend and expense of wind power🙄. In fact it highlights the additional folly of thinking so called "green hydrogen" will be some sort of saving grace for this nonsense given how seldom wind is getting anywhere near meeting the full needs of a modern grid

Birdnuts · 09-02-2022 1:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601919#Comment_118601919

Pity its such a rare event or the fact that there is no evidence the UK or France have any interest in paying us for it. This happens in Germany occasionally too and neighbouring grids take some of the excess but don't reimburse Germany to any great extent for it. Far more common is Germany having to import nuclear, gas or hydro from neighbouring grids during poor wind conditions and pay full market prices for it