Black Monday 2022 - NFL Coaching Carousel

For me, a lot of the stuff in the lawsuit seems a bit vague. Interviews where people looked disinterested? The job going to a candidate ahead of your interview, this is surely par for the course instead of signs of racism.

The current make up of coaches in the NFL is predominantly white at the moment, but most teams have had a minority head coach in very recent memory, and over the last 15 years there has been a huge increase as minority coaches fill and find success at lower positions and that should filter through eventually. The NFL has also just recently incentivized (via draft picks) the hiring and promotion of minority coaches.

16 of the teams have had a minority HC hire within the last 2 head coaches they have hired, while 4 teams have not had the need to change coach recently, 5 teams have never had a minority coach from what I can see. That to me does not scream systemic racism.

I remember reading about the Rooney Rule, and that the original idea was to get minority candidates "into the room" as it were, where otherwise they wouldn't have access. To give them exposure and a chance to make their case to NFL front offices, and perhaps they would not get that particular job, but that they could impress and be considered somewhere down the line - perhaps with a different team.

Very few HCs or coordinators didn't play football to at least a college level - where still over 50% of players are black.

Again, it is quite rare for college coaches go straight into NFL HC roles or even into coordinator positions, as the game is quite different between levels and the money at college level is crazy. It is usually just one per offseason that come in at a HC level and around similar for coordinators.

Agree there is a similar problem at the college level but it isn't a key factor or excuse for the NFL situation.

Your stats ignore the realities though - yes, teams have had minority HCs but that numbers show that it is tougher for them to get the job, the have been gotten rid of quicker, and they are less likely to get a second opportunity.

Your point on the reason for the Rooney Rule is exactly why there is an issue with teams being disinterested during interviews - be it showing up late and hungover, interviewing after a decision was already made, or key decision makers not attending (up until the last year or so owners would only show up to certain interviews, meaning the others were clearly a sham).

There is simply no evidence to back up a claim that it might be only 'the odd owners/GM who hold some backward belief', the data points to the opposite being far more likely. Many of these owners and GMs grew up when discrimination was allowed by law and some families played a part in overt active discrimination against black players and coaches so even ignoring the data it is naive to think race doesn't play into decision making.

...but wouldn't pushing minority candidates into HC positions, if they are genuinely not ready for it, only cause a feedback loop, where they will be gotten rid of quicker, and mess up that second opportunity? (the Glass Cliff, I think it is called) The prospect pool has to be there to draw from first, and for a myriad of reasons, minority coaches don't seem to have come through on the offensive side of things.

RE: the Rooney rule, I was pointing out, not that it was set up purposely to be a sham/not taken seriously, but to put minority coaches in the shop window for prospective roles that would crop up, where they may not have gotten a chance before, to raise the profile of the coaches within league circles as they interview. The Rooney rule was never going to lead to a huge number of direct HC hirings, teams generally have an idea of who they want to hire before the interview process. For big hires the coach is likely interviewing the team as much as vice versa.

The evidence for GMs/Owners is just in how hiring practices have changed dramatically, even since the days I was watching the game, no black head coaches in the 60s, 70s, 80s, completely locked out until Art Shell in 1989. Since then, things have improved through the 90s to today. What we have at the moment looks like an anomaly rather than a trend. The trend has been for more and more minority coaches and coordinators. And that trend will hopefully continue, but it needs to be built from the ground up. Maybe I just can't put myself into the shoes of a GM or owner who would genuinely think there was an advantage to being white. Maybe that is naïve to think it does not go on. But Flores' argument to me looks a bit vague and doesn't stack up.

It will be interesting to see what comes of it if it isn't settled with confidentiality clauses etc.

Sorry, not sure how to quote bits of an individual post, so it looks a bit wall of texty there.

Black player or coach shows emotion - he is 'angry' or 'difficult to work with'

White player or coach shows emotion - he is 'passionate'

Bienemy has a long list of questionable behaviour while at Colorado.

Of course people can change, and the last thing on the list is from decades ago, but it would always be a concern if a franchise wanted to hand the keys over, especially if the competing against candidates who do not have this in their past

With all that said, I don't think there is much to be gained in examining the issue based off a single person or experience. The lack of minority coaches in the NFL is definitely a concern and problem, just trying to identify why it is a problem is where we disagree. I think it is due to the current trend towards offensive-minded coaches, and that is the point to work backwards from. Others think it is because current, capable Black candidates are being excluded due to their race.

Reposting comments about an interview means absolutely nothing, it is the standard tactic that is used by anyone in power - quite frequently they are later proven to have done wrong. When asked a question the person with less power regularly has to swallow their feelings and work with or say nice things about the powerful person or risk their career.

Where is the evidence he is a nightmare to work for? Unlike some coaches who are destroyed by players after they leave I didn't see much/anything about Flores. Seems to have been leaked by the Dolphins to sully his name, if a nightmare to work with isn't accepting bribes to lose or tamper with a QB (likely Brady).

On whether he will reach a settlement, this doesn't need to be a case strong enough to scare them that he'll win just strong enough that they'll be scared of a) going to discovery or b) continued bad press.

'Throughout his coaching career'??? The last issue I can find he was linked to was 20 years ago.

Working under Reid didn't seem to be an issue for Nagy getting his opportunity. It is as or more clear McVay runs his offense yet O'Connell and Taylor each got HC jobs after less time working under him and each just having 7 years of coaching experience.

You can bend over backwards to find potential excuses for every situation but I don't see how anyone can look at all the data and be naive enough to believe that time after time after time that it just happens that the white guy comes out on top in the process - especially given the open racism we see in the NFL, the long history of NFL blocking black players and coaches, and the way they have to continuously make weak rules for NFL owners to even appear to give black candidates a fair chance.

If it isn't an issue of when then why did you misleadingly post that issues occurred 'throughout his coaching career'. If you said he had some issues early in his coaching career I wouldn't have responded. It isn't like coaches, GMs, or even owners have not had their own run ins with the law - Vrabel for example had issues when he was younger yet was hired with only 7 years experience coaching and against the offensive coaching trend.

I get your point on Bieniemy but nit-picking every candidate you can always some reason why they shouldn't get a given job, the problem is it always seems it is done for black candidates. It is why people wanting to discuss coach by coach doesn't make sense when speaking about the problem, it is only when you take a high level view you see how much things add up and the clear bias at play in the hiring process.

You can argue that as the reason but it is based on absolutely nothing but a guess. We simply do not know each of these situations but when you zoom out the evidence points to benefit of the doubt going to the white coach over the black coach far far too frequently for it not to be at minimum a systematic issue.

I completely understand teams writing him off for a serious allegation that occurred 30 years ago, one that he was arrested for but never charged or convicted, but if they feel so strongly about it then have a zero tolerance in their organisation for those who has allegations against them in their lives, especially when they are regularly more recent, with more evidence, and sometimes even more serious.

McDaniel gone to the Dolphins - seemed likely he was on the way out after the 49ers brought in Anthony Lynn over the weekend. Didn't think he had the personality to get buy in from most owners. Would have preferred him to go into a better organisation, hopefully he doesn't get hurt by the pretty likely punishment. After doing an 11 hour interview he'd want to have gotten the job.

Nice two further 3rd round picks for over the next two years for the 49ers after getting three years of them from the two other minority coaches hired last offseason. Ryans likely to be a top target next year we've become a strong pipeline for minority coaches

I don't get why it is annoying. How Lovie was treated is in stark contrast with the same organisation keeping Nagy after two 8-8 seasons and the team wasn't looking like it was going in anywhere like the right direction. It has similarities with how Caldwell and Patricia were treated with the Lions.

Nearly every individual situation can be excused away but when you zoom out and look more broadly the numbers show how unfairly black coaches are treated - if everything was equal white coaches would be booted out at a similar rate when they have winning seasons, however black coaches are 3.5 times more likely to get fired.

You nor I have absolutely no idea whether race had 'nothing to do with it' or if it played a part. The numbers however point to the likelihood that a white coach would have been less likely to have been fired after a similar season. Subsequent hires matter because of the time the white coaches were given despite worse performance on the field.

You're probably right that there was enough cause in Lovie's case to get rid of him but that doesn't change the fact that the Bears and other teams continuously ignore similar or greater levels cause when it is white men in charge of their teams. As I keep saying, you can argue each situation but the numbers do not lie.