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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "Its not at all like a car - currently our grid has several different sources, some dispatchable, some not."

    It is an analogy, no analogy is perfect :)

    I'm trying to get across the concept that even if we still have NG plants (the petrol engine in the analogy), that doesn't mean we have to use them all the time and we can still massively benefit both financially and environmentally from using them much less.

    "The more renewables (non-dispatchable) we add to the grid, the more dispatchable reserve we need in the event that renewable output is low. For a grid of 100% renewables, we would also need 100% capacity of gas or equivalent as reserve."

    Every form of electricity generation needs backup, it is as much true for coal plants (like when moneypoint went offline for most of a year) or gas plants do (like the two last year) or Nuclear power plants do (like the new EPR's in China at the moment or the ones in France at the moment) as it is for wind. This is nothing new.

    Disptachable versus non-dispatchable is becoming increasingly less relevant, I think people imagine that wind just suddenly stops, it isn't the case. Weather prediction and modelling has gotten good enough that they can spin up or down NG ahead of time. Increasingly we will likely see more grid scale batteries being used in the grid as a buffer for say 4 to 6 hours, to help smooth out sudden spikes or outages.

    But overall the point is we will greatly reduce how much fossil fuels we use. It of course isn't the end goal, but it will be a major step in the right direction.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,326 Mod ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy


    Just on the point of needing reserve in the system, there are CCGT plants in Ireland that get paid as if they are fully producing even though they are not producing anything, and just have the turbines on turning gear, ready to 'fast start' which means they have to be up and running at full capacity within 30 minutes.. a very nice earner for the plant if they are not burning NG all day long.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, though increasingly we are seeing grid scale batteries starting to replace such CCGT plants. Obviously that will be a gradual process over many years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    Little old Ireland has absolutely no control over the gas price, we price at the UK NBP price + transport cost. The power price is historically set by the marginal gas generator which is why on average Irish prices are a little higher than the UK. NBP and TTF gas hubs in Europe price based on the cost of the marginal LNG tanker coming to Europe. Oil and gas are global markets and gas prices are rising because emerging market economies are starting to grow and with it increase demand. There is also pressure on the supply side, the US shale boom is over and ESG concerns are growing, operators are thinking long and hard about investing in all but the most guaranteed exploration projects. More Irish or even European renewables do not mean lower gas prices due to less demand for gas, and European decarbonization efforts barely put a dent in the growth we are going to see in Asia, Africa and South America in general gas demand as well as coal to gas switching. Even the US has a long road to go in switching from coal to gas, all pushing up demand for the latter.

    More renewables means less gas burned but the same amount of capacity is still needed as reserve, the question is who is going to build a gas plant running at low load factors that risks being stranded by 2040 without huge capacity payments? Batteries are a nice solution but they are risky for that last 1% - that one period in the year where you get an extended cold snap and the battery is fully discharged - you need to overbuild by a large percentage to account for that one hour and the system operator has to plan for all eventualities. Offshore wind has a lot of potential but we are making it extremely difficult to do business here. Nuclear - no chance ourselves, personally not keen on fully outsourcing a huge chunk of our energy security to a foreign entity - we have already sold out half of our property to vulture funds, we need to create a clean energy industry for future generations not contract it out to France or SK. Interconnectors get a big thumbs up from me but they are just part of the puzzle.

    Net Zero is a dangerous and politically loaded term, I have never met a long term energy planner who liked it. In my view 95% decarbonization is a hell of a job, that last 5% will cost significantly more and is not worth considering, there is lower hanging fruit globally that those funds could go to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    "But miing it could be hard..." There's some in Serbia too, but the climate protesters would rather have green unsullied valleys and more CO2 in the air, which is very sensible of them, so they ran Rio Tinto out of town. The government were visibly shaking at the knnes in their fear of the electorates wrath at the issue.

    Gas fields are not batteries and there isn't a single H2 grid storage solution in place in any country. the whole thing is currently just more of you hopium and your ability to trivialise and gloss over serious technical chalenges is bewildering.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    There are no grid scale batteries anywhere, you are misusing the term severely, which is a battery so vast it can power a nation's grid for a week or two. Existing batteries like the one in South Australia and the even bigger one proposed for NSW, are more like big ripple smoothing capacitors than large, deep cycle truck batteries.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    With respect, you are putting words in my mouth which I didn't say! I never said anything about 1 to 2 weeks, I said about using batteries as a replacing peaker gas plants for periods in the region of 4 to 6 hours that can help smooth out the transition between renewables and gas plants spinning up.

    I'd ask you not to misrepresent what I said like that!



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    There's grid scale storage off Teeside. They go though 15TWh of hydrogen in that part of the world every year. It isn't used on the grid because it's not green hydrogen as it's made from hydrocarbons.

    "ICI converted smaller caverns in the Saltholm and Wilton brine fields into storages for light hydrocarbons, propane, propylene, crude oil, gas oil, naphtha, ethylene, nitrogen and hydrogen" (PDF 2004) - even back then Germany, France, Italy and Austria had storage for between 20-30% of annual gas consumption. How many ways are there to say that grid scale gas storage is dirt cheap ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Great - so most of us will have died of old age......... I somehow doubt we will still be faffing about with wind at that stage either



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Wind energy has failed miserably to achieve any of that



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ye might want to have a read of this.

    Pretty much what many of us have been saying throughout this and other threads on the topic of energy in Ireland has been outlined by the Taoiseach at the One Ocean summit

    What's going to be the main growth in Ireland's energy generation?

    “Our target to 2030 is to get to 80% and that will be dependent on the offshore wind technologies from now to then,” the Taoiseach said.

    As to growing beyond 80%...

    “We’re creating a new regulatory agency to govern the development of offshore wind and renewables, five gigawatts to 2030 but excessively beyond that then for post-2030 so that we get into a stage where we will be exporting energy.

    On interconnectors...

    “We are developing interconnection, we will soon have interconnection with France and with Wales and we see that as our future to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.”

    On the risks to Ireland from fossil fuel supplies, hydrogen and storage

    “If we look at the geopolitical situation at the moment, part of our vulnerability, and certainly from an Irish perspective, is our dependence on imported fossil fuels,” Martin said.


    “Our way out of that dependence is the development of offshore wind,” he said, adding “green hydrogen and greater storage capacity as well”.





  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Ireland got 40% of it's energy from onshore wind last year. That 40% is 53% of 75% maximum that the grid can accomodate.

    Offshore wind has a higer capacity factor so that 53% will increase. And the 75% got to 86% last week when we were exporting.


    Gas prices jumped across Europe when France took 4 nuclear plants off line because of corrosion issues. EDF lost 10% of annual production and 18% of share value. Wind in Ireland displaces a comparable amount of gas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 880 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Nobody here can possibly know the price of gas if the country had no wind turbines - that scenario has not occurred.

    If 40% of national usage was gas instead of wind we'd be totally exposed to gas price fluctuations and it's far more likely bills would be higher and we'd have lower energy security.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    We have gas we choose not to exploit. Any negative issues of energy insecurity are theirfore an own-goal, for which Ireland are world class. Noway is the class act to follow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 880 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    And not exploiting* that gas is silly. As is not having nuclear but with NIMBY culture it's just not possible. Even an interconnector has organised opposition.

    *I don't mean burning it until it's gone and then have no plan B. Developing wind powered green hydrogen production should still be funded. There could be use for a hydrogen rich gas blend during winter and during the growing season burn natural gas until a massive well of hydrogen is built up. Year on year gradually buy in fuel cell equipment so the hydrogen doesn't have to be burnt.

    Post edited by Busman Paddy Lasty on


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    We are already partly planning to follow Norways policies. They produce most of their electricity by renewables and then export excess over interconnectors, making a lot of money doing so.

    We will end up doing the same, exporting lots of excess renewable power over interconnectors.

    If you want to fully embrace the Norwegian approach, then we would also extract the gas, but not use it ourselves, instead export it and make money off it. Enriching our economy.

    Basically the Norwegian trick is to use renewables (hydro in their case) as much as possible and not get high on their own supply of fossil fuels.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    what gas have we got that we are not utilising? Genuine question I don’t know the answer.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    It could mean extracting gas faster from the Corrib which means it would run out sooner leaving us more exposed.

    Or developing the Barryroe field which is mostly oil but has gas too or other known gas fields. All it needs is time, money, and the politics to align. The Ballroe field is near the existing Kinsale one so probably the quickest poject to get up and running.

    Doesn't get us closer to reducing carbon. But would offer energy security while we roll out renewables.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Does corrib not run out in three years or less?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Clown never mentioned anything about the pressures on the Marine environment or why Ireland has failed to designate any MPAs ahead of the developer led carve up planned for vast areas.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Is this the new spin from the wind bluffers?? claiming bills would be even higher despite the fact that for years they spun the lie that wind would lead to lower energy bills. Pretty pathetic really and i doubt the general public will take much more of this. In the UK yesterday there was a number of large protests calling for energy bills to be capped, that spells trouble for governments still indulging this nonsense



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Norway has vast hydro resources - there is nothing like that available here as anyone with a basic knowledge of geography will tell u



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Does anyone on here know how our electricity system purchase system works, mainly the capital side ?

    I mean eirgrid own/ operate the grid, and ESB networks own and run the local distribution and meters - but generation capacity ? I know there are auctions , but what are the typical terms ?

    If I build a Ccgt for 6 0r 7 hundred million ,I'm getting a contract to have it available ? Up to a max use and a minimum ? And then charge for the electricity supplied per unit- ( with the price based on fluctuating gas price ?

    How long would these contracts last ?

    I assume wind and solar are a bit different ,15 year contracts ? And priority access ? Who decides the price ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 880 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Spin, what are you on about?

    Take 2020 fuel mix. 43% renewables and 50% natural gas. Do you seriously think electricity would be cheaper now if wind didn't exist and the grid was 93% gas?

    Include EU fines for having a >90% fossil fuel mix as well.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We have wind, Norway has hydro, Spain has sun etc.

    It's just a case of playing to the strengths of the available renewable resources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Your labouring under the fallacy that ever MW of wind replaces a MW of gas - showing your ignorance of how gas plants and basic load works. There is also the matter of windfarms taking power from the grid in low wind conditions to prevent their turbines ceasing up and the truck load of RESS money they get. You will also find the highest energy prices in the EU are associated with grids with the most installed wind capacity like here, Germany and Denmark.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Comparing wind to hydro is utter nonsense for a long list of reasons - wind has performed poorly in any case across Western Europe for the past 12 months - hence the desperation to secure more gas generation across the region.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    So what ? Even if every MW of wind only displaced half a MW of gas it's still way cheaper and greener.

    I'll remind you again that in NI derating 900kW turbines to maximum output of 250kW meant twice the capacity factor as a 250kW turbine. So displacing twice as much gas. It just shows how installing lots of extra turbines can double the % of power we get from wind.

    At present we need large generators on-load at all times near the big cities for grid stability. So that can't be displaced by wind or interconnectors. Yet.

    We can have 4.5GW of wind stabilised by 1.5GW of generators. Demand in summer is low and when the new interconnectors come on line we could be exporting 2.2GW of that 1.5GW and wind would be providing up to 118% of demand. (4.5GW/3/8GW) without other grid improvements.


    We've all seen stopped wind turbines so we all know they aren't taking power all the time to prevent seizing. However so called "24/7" Nuclear plants absoutley depend on grid power when they aren't generating their own. Bad things happen if you keep a reactor cool.


    Reminder that wholesale prices are a published reflection of what it costs to produce electricity and can be compared between countries. Retail prices not so much.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Wind is already backed up with other generation equipment ,so yeah there may be more need of gas to run those generators longer -

    What would they be running if the wind turbines didn't exist ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: @correct horse battery staple

    I presume you are referring to myself.

    You are not prevented from saying anything. Just that this thread is not about your favourite topic, and you can exercise that topic in another thread with a suitable title that applies to all posters who wish to debate that same topic.

    I do not, a a moderator, allow my own views to affect my moderation of threads - nor do I tolerate back-seat moderation by posters.



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