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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,110 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    If older people feel safe wearing them they should nit be judged for that but it shouldn’t be a legal req



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    You would expect some will continue to do so for quite a while after they cease to be mandatory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,860 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    No problem with that. If people want to continue to wear masks everywhere (including on their own in cars!) then work away.

    But leave the rest of us alone to live normally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Accusing Walus et al,of attempting to "smear Scientists" is a tad harsh,particularly when,by their unbridled enthusiasm for using their status to constantly push a single worst-case scenario conclusion,these professionals bore a deal of culpability themselves,which they yet have to acknowledge.

    Perhaps if Mr McConkey and his counterparts Worldwide had instead utilised a modicum of restraint in their early predictions,they would not be facing the crisis of public confidence their chosen Science now faces ?

    Instead,whether by design or under direct instruction from their employers,this small and inward looking group of Mathematically focused professionals headed pell-mell to a largely Government aided Mainstream Media and delivered a near constant stream of unchallenged "Worst Case Scenarios" direct into the living rooms of the Great Unwashed,most of whom were NOT mathematicians and therefore unaware of the HUGE variables at play in these calculations.

    None of these professionals had any real notion of the path which was to be taken by Covid-19,but yet,were very strident in playing down any lower to mid range calculations,a trait which was still very much in recent evidence when the South African Omicron experience was being openly reported in the S.A media.

    NOWHERE did Mr McConkey's predictions carry a "Public Health Warning" along the lines of "These predictions are not necessarily accurate",which might have calmed the general public instead of convincing them that the End was Nigh.

    If there is any good to have come from all of this,it is how the non-mathematicians amongst us will be VERY reluctant to accept future Modelling of this type at face value,thanks to the less than professional behaviours of these poster-boy's for Global Doom .

    Every cloud does indeed have a silver lining ! 🤠


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    I wonder where that will leave people who want to wear a mask and run a public facing business like a shop or group activity. Will they still be able to choose mandatory mask wearing on their premises/at their activity. I do a couple of different exercise classes where mask wearing has been mandatory, even when it didn't have to be. I accept it but hate it. Exercise in a mask is genuinely horrible. Tbh, during times of high infection/risk I've chosen to wear a mask in places that it wasn't required, even though I hate it because I weighed it up and decided that I'd wear a mask rather than not go. But I think that once mask wearing is no longer actually considered necessary, I'll be loathe to wear one because someone else is nervous.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,538 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Nobody has issue with people wearing masks.

    A lot now don't want to wear them and they don't want to be called a granny killer for not wearing one either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    When it ceases to be mandatory, mask wearing will have no legal force and people will go elsewhere if pushed to wear one. Never experienced that with exercise as our gym never applied it at any time. It sounds very unpleasant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,860 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I think that once the legal requirements are removed, businesses (who have already lost enough money and customers over the last 2 years) will be very foolish to try insisting on masks.

    I fully expect the vast majority of people will bin the stupid things as soon as that happens, and any business that takes that approach will lose even more business to others who are living in the real world.

    There's simply no need or justification for them at this point - if there ever really was!



  • Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭Croohur1


    Alek Smart, you don't seem to understand what a worst case scenario is. It is not prediction of what will happen, it is the most unlikely scenario of what could.

    You say:

    "NOWHERE did Mr McConkey's predictions carry a "Public Health Warning" along the lines of "These predictions are not necessarily accurate",which might have calmed the general public instead of convincing them that the End was Nigh."

    What a bizarre statement you have just made. Are you saying that you don't understand what a worst case scenario is? Why did you believe only his least likely scenario to occur to be the one that needs a" public health warning"?

    I'm genuinely stumped about how you can't grasp this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 818 ✭✭✭moonage


    Most businesses would prefer to ban mask wearing on their premises.

    The only real benefit of masks is that it hides people's faces, which is a real boon to shoplifters or someone who wants to hold up a quiet shop.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    No bother.

    The "WORST CASE SCENARIO !" is just that.

    Most people in their daily hum-drum lives do the WCS assessment constantly,as they decide which side of bed to get out of,which route to take to work,what amount of grief to give the boss etc.

    There are Best & Worst Case Scenario's arising before us all,everyday.

    This process continues across the entirety of our human condition,even up to individuals suffering from terminal illnesses deciding which therapies best suit them,even if their choices do not concur with their professional advisers.

    In short,dealing with WCS's is more common than many realize.

    What Ordinary people generally do is use their own senses,common or not to make their own decisions,some good,some bad,but largely it works for most of us.

    What was different this time round,was the decision of the McConkeys et al,to go for broke by actively utilising the Mainstream Media to put the WORST CASE SCENARIO relentlessly across print,broadcast and internet 24/7.

    The Common Man,wherever he may inhabit,is remarkably prone to manipulation,all the more so when the manipulators are bigged-up far beyond James Brown level.

    Don't be unduly concerned by the stumping,Croohur,as Covid-19 and it's handling has stumped most people far beyond the mere bizzarre.

    Hopefully,as many countries now enter the review & audit phase,we may see a couple more MSM outlets following the Danish Ekstra Bladet newspaper and admitting that their own performance has been seriously flawed in how they failed to question the Official Line,from whichever suit was on Frightline duty each day.


    In an article in the Ekstra Bladet tabloid last week headlined “We Failed”, journalist Brian Weichardt issued a mea culpa to the public on behalf of the media for not doing more to interrogate Covid-19 statistics.

    Weichardt wrote that for nearly two years, both the press and the public had been “almost hypnotically preoccupied” with authorities’ daily coronavirus updates, obsessing over infections, hospitalisations and deaths, as the significance of the “smallest movements” was “laid out by experts, politicians and authorities, who have constantly warned us about the dormant corona monster under our beds”.

    “The constant mental alertness has worn out tremendously on all of us,” he wrote. “That is why we – the press – must also take stock of our own efforts. And we have failed.”

    I would not be as harsh in the Danish case,as at least some of their 4th estate are critically reviewing their role in Covid-19.

    However,I await any such reflection on the part of our own Media,and it's professional Scientific contributors who were all too ready with whatever "Scenario" would grab the attention of the lumpen masses to ensure full Compliance with the Emergency Legislation's requirements.

    C'mon Professor's...surely your elevated status can also allow for some introspective analysis...or were you really correct ALL of the time ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭Croohur1


    People on this board constantly complain about how there rights are being taken away from them and they are being treated like children are the same ones who ask why the government doesn't put a public health warning on a scenario. 🤷



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    I think those involved in healthcare and especially modelling should go on a study trip to Denmark where they do things properly. Afaik the only country that got the Omikron modelling spot on, factoring in every possible data point including data from Botswana and RSA plus behaviour/ psychology estimations.

    You cant come to any other conclusions that the majority of faulty modelling was based on the judgement of uncertainty principles, themselves based on biased reasoning. I saw this coming from a mile away when they dismissed the RSA data out of hand. Dismissing up to date data points is a clear indicator that your outcome will be more biased than is reasonable, especially when you put too much faith in parameters that have even greater uncertainties.. No major mea culpa forthcoming though. In fact it is a doubling down. Yes, the models didnt reflect reality BUT no, we were not wrong dismissing some factors because of the 'uncertainty principle'. Sad



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Don't Chute!


    McConkey has absolutely no credibility whatsoever since he said this

    He should not be listened to in any situation as far as I’m concerned so whatever order of magnitude he was talking about is completely irrelevant. The man is a complete lunatic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,892 ✭✭✭the kelt


    Yep,

    Just another attention whore who used the pandemic as a means to gain notoriety and a semblance of fame, the article above a desperate attempt to retain some form of relevance when the pandemic was coming to an end.

    Theyve sprung up everywhere in the last 2 years, particularly on twitter, creatures such as your one Orla the architect and her sidekick Olive still desperately clambering for the fear to return for the plain and simple reason that they are now simply being ignored. Attention whores whos only means of relevance is fear, how sad!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,302 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Interesting article from Cormac Lucey in yesterdays' ST regarding the reaction, or rather lack of, to the recent John Hopkins studies into the benefits of lockdowns (almost zero) vs their eye-watering costs (both financial and health related).


    Why, questions Lucey, is this story not front-page news and leading every new bulletin over the last week?


    His conclusion, which I agree with, is that people don't want to know. There is simply no appetite to admit what has been obvious to a few of us on this thread from the start. Namely that the vast majority of the restrictions were wholly unjustified, disproportionate and have done far more harm than good.

    People simply do not like to admit they were wrong. A combination of sunk-cost fallacy and hubris.


    What is concerning is that, despite the pissing away of €50billion (and counting), it would appear we are not willing to at least learn from our mistakes. When the next 'deadly pandemic' arrives, we will see the same people calling for lockdowns and the same craven political response.

    Depressing stuff but unfortunately very unsurprising.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    It will be interesting to see who the real sheep are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    All along he was hanging off everything NPHET said now he believes he’s some medical expert and going against the medical team.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,431 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I wonder where that will leave people who want to wear a mask and run a public facing business like a shop or group activity. Will they still be able to choose mandatory mask wearing on their premises/at their activity. 

    I would be surprised if any businesses or group activity organisers tried to do this. I don't see why they would if the pandenic is effectively over.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,302 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    All of this was quite foreseeable. Here's a post of mine from April 2020 - nearly 2 years ago.


    It would really make your blood boil to see the economy destroyed and 10's of billions added to our debt for nothing.

    All being driven by politicians desperate to cover their arses and mobs of hysteria-merchants on social media.

    We have likely condemned thousands of healthy people to an early grave. Health budgets will be slashed for years to come. Screenings, operations, ability to purchase the latest drugs and treatments; all either lost or severely compromised.

    As more evidence comes to light of the futility of lockdowns in stopping the rate of infections. As more evidence comes to light of the devastating impact of lockdowns on employment. As more evidence comes to light of the cost of lockdowns - we are still persisting with this utterly moronic nonsense.

    Our politicians have made Trump look vaguely competent - and he suggested that people should inject disinfectant!

    Shame on the Irish Government and shame on the electorate who vote these populist charlatans in.


    Here's another post from March 2020

    For the vast majority of people the 'cure' will be way worse than the disease.

    Hundreds of thousands on the dole queues, tax receipts down the toilet and investments into critical services will have to be drastically slashed. The coming recession will kill way more people than the virus - just over a longer period and without the newspaper headlines.

    People over 65 could have been quarantined without any major effect on the economy.


    I'm not Nostradamus and I'm no expect but if myself and others could see the what the Covid-response was panning out from the very start, why could the so called experts, that we pay a King's ransom to in salaries, not see it either?


    You can come up with your own answers to that question.

    Post edited by facehugger99 on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭OwenM



    Maybe being an order of magnitude out is acceptable in epidemiology? If that's the case then it is a worse science than economics, maybe even an order of magnitude worse. Also don't forget he's not an epidemiologist either and has form too with this kind of attention seeking nonsense, go back to swine flu he predicted 1000 deaths and that wasn't his worst case scenario - that was a cautious estimate, I think the final tally was 21?

    https://www.irishcentral.com/news/ireland-braces-for-1-million-cases-of-swine-fle-51861752-237652931



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    I'll have to agree with that. People in general see changing their mind and opinion as a sign of weakness, and most don't want to see themselves proven wrong, especially in public. Instead the preference and bias is to follow through and continue along the lines of the original decision. This forum is one of the places you can find a proof of that. Many people here are still following the early 'science' instead of updating their knowledge and possibly changing their beliefs accordingly.

    Instead those very same people, to preserve their own versions of reality, work tirelessly to discredit any piece of information and its authors that debunks what they have been telling themselves all along. It is pathetic really, but totally understandable as people are very much emotionally charged and tied to their own believes, however wrong they may be.

    We pissed away 50 bn, and have nothing to show for that. That is a fact. There is a small little chance that lockdown in Ireland have spared some deaths 'with' covid. If we were to believe JH study that would be 13 (!) people. In reality though, whatever the real number is, secondary deaths over time will dwarf that, no question about it. The problem is will we ever learn the cost of of those lockdowns in monetary and health terms? Possibly not. Proper journalism is long dead in this country.

    Post edited by walus on

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,643 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I don't think the RSA data was dismissed out of hand, it was more a case of countries not pivoting based off one data point, without the RSA data and if as deadly as Delta and with a higher R, then we'd have seen full lockdowns put in place again, but this didn't happen, the world was basically in a holding pattern until confidence was high that Omicron was more like the original strain in how deadly it was.

    The countries that didn't lock down didn't do substantially better than others anyway (you only have to compare Sweden with it's neighbours to see this, their economy performed worse and had lower GDP as well as much higher rates of death), however the JH study has issues, interesting data presented, but also contradictions in the data. It was also not a JH study (the authors used it's name to add weight even though JH wasn't behind it) and it was by economists rather than health experts, which, again, gives an interesting viewpoint, but not one to overcorrect towards without additional data behind it (and certainly less contradictions in the data presented).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    "I’ve learned a lot in the process—both about this pandemic and how we stop the next one—and I want to share what I’ve heard with people. So, I started writing a book about how we can make sure that no one suffers through a pandemic ever again." Says Bill Gates who thinks we will never have to do this again. His book: "How to Prevent the Next Pandemic" will be out soon. It will be interesting to see what role in all that he envisions for preventive healthcare and mRNA vaccines. Should be an interesting read.

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/my-new-pandemic-book-coming-soon-bill-gates/

    Make no mistake Bill knows the future better than most. He is creating it after all.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,205 ✭✭✭Spudman_20000


    This is the same lad that couldn't keep viruses off his operating systems yeah? 🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    Yup, this time though he is wearing the 'global health czar' hat.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,345 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    Covid really seems like such an after thought now

    It's great and when the bloody mask things goes it will be even greater



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    i have literally no idea of what the numbers are any more. It’s good that they are not pushed at us, while those that want to know can presumably find them somewhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,583 ✭✭✭Penfailed


    That's the scenario that the media picked up and continuously reported on, so...

    Gigs '24 - Ben Ottewell and Ian Ball (Gomez), The Jesus & Mary Chain, The Smashing Pumpkins/Weezer, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Stendhal Festival, Forest Fest, Electric Picnic, Ride, PJ Harvey, Pixies, Public Service Broadcasting, Therapy?, IDLES(x2)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,583 ✭✭✭Penfailed


    You also said this -

    Definitely not Nostradamus.

    Gigs '24 - Ben Ottewell and Ian Ball (Gomez), The Jesus & Mary Chain, The Smashing Pumpkins/Weezer, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Stendhal Festival, Forest Fest, Electric Picnic, Ride, PJ Harvey, Pixies, Public Service Broadcasting, Therapy?, IDLES(x2)



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