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How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    It may be counter productive to appease the extremists on either side if you loose the majority in the centre.

    Any calls for autonomy have to be take into account that NI is not homogenous and would have to be separated into at least two regions with guarantees for minorities in each region.

    Buying the extremists off or turning a blind to low level criminality like smuggling should keep then from rioting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭LawBoy2018




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    NI has great potential. If nothing is done the economic gap will continue to widen with the potential for a failed statelet. On the other hand given the same oppertunities as down here the economy should pick up.

    "I honestly don't see a place for the DUP/Unionists in a United Ireland though." - TBH a lot of people in NI can't see a place for the dregs or either tribe either.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Which laws in particular ? The EU can be pragmatic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Of course it would take time which is why I referred to it as an investment. The study detailed loads of benefits for the Republic including a massive boost in GDP, this study is the best we have by far on the economic impact of Unification. The study was carried out by some of the greatest experts from around the world from impartial countries like Canada and Germany.

    GDP in the Republic could rise by €30m to €152m in the year of policy implementation. In total, Irish unification could boost all- island GDP (mostly in the Republic) by as much as €35.6bn within 8 years, the report concluded.

    Speaking at the event, Michael Burke, economic consultant and former Senior International Economist at Citibank in London, discussed the impact of a unified Ireland.

    "We hear lots of reasons for or against Irish unification but very few of them focus on the economic debate", he said.

    Adding: "In my view - and I think it is substantiated by this very voluminous research - Irish unification is a growth story, is a success story, is a prosperity story, and that's why I very much welcome the report".



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Interesting take by sam Mcbride on unionist undying love for the union.

    just a further headache for northern republicans,

    “The fact that NI unionists' attachment to the UK is sustained through repeated humiliation by London shows the depth of the connection — & shows how hard it will be for nationalism to persuade even a minority of unionists to change sides in a border poll.”

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/Sam-mcbride/unwanted-and-unloved-unionists-are-unbowed-but-boris-johnsons-brexit-deal-is-just-latest-example-of-many-in-britain-kicking-unionism-and-then-being-loved-even-more-strongly-in-return-41342583.html?fbclid=IwAR1Mjk5hUaYD9X1U2hn18dj0-8GQ7-rrXwSgh21pZMKCrBHTWrTpe2YDrRI



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Isn't this first and foremost a headache for unionists themselves? They strongly identify with a nation which, when push comes to shove, doesn't appear to consider them to be part of the nation. That's kind of an uncomfortable situation to be in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You are trying to understand a relationship that seems beyond your understanding. Maybe try and examine a few other relationships in the Union and then come back and look again.

    try eng/Scot, Wales/eng, north of eng/south of eng, Glasgow/Edinburgh, etc, etc.

    you opted out of this wonderful diverse union. Everyone else opted to stay and value it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,776 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Westminster decamped to Scotland to plead with Scots to stay and swung the Indy referendum. The same Westminister that made it's intentions to NI Unionists clear in the, hated by Unionists, - GFA - they will leave you in a UI and make no fight to keep you in the Union...'they will remain neutral'.

    Those other relationships are completely different.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't get the sense that the English value it. Look at the government they have elected, and the policies that government has pursued with respect to NI. As McBride's article - that you linked to - says:

    "Why do a people in the north-east of this island love Britain when evidence abounds to show the British do not feel that way towards them?"

    If you read that, and your first thought is "Ooh, this presents a problem for northern republicans!", no offence, but you're in denial*. This presents a huge problem for unionists. If anything, it's an opportunity for northern republicans. But, mainly, it's a problem for unionists.

    * Which, honestly, would be understandable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I am only quoting Mcbride. I actually don’t think it is much of a positive or negative for either re UI. That is entirely in the hands of the gfa - which I voted for and am very glad us in existence. Copper fastens the union



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    brit gov recently said exactly the opposite ie they will be campaigning fo no to stay.

    anyhow Scotland was different as it was close. There will be no alarm should there be a UI poll.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It does copperfasten the union, because it makes the continuation of the union dependent on the wishes of a majority in NI, without regard to the wishes of a majority in GB. And, for the reason that McBride points out, unionists should be glad of this, because if the continuation of the union required the support both of a majority in NI and of a majority in GB, its continuation would be rather less likely.

    But it's maybe thin comfort. How much value is there in the continuation of a union with a GB that doesn't want or value you? If, long-term, NI is going to be treated by GB in the way that it's being treated right now - well, if you rule out divorce that just means the continuation of an abusive marriage. That's kind of cold comfort, isn't it?

    The clearest sign that NI unionism has entered into a crisis is its reluctance to ask Westminster to demonstrate any commitment to, or support of, the union. All the protocol-related angst that unionism is now experiencing flows directly from policy choices made by the UK government; this entire problem is the intentional creation of Westminster, born of disdain and disregard for NI. And the unionist response has been to blame Dublin, blame Brussels, blame anyone except the people who are to blame. Unionist leadership won't ask Westminster to do anything to solve the problem for NI which Westminster has created, because they know such an appeal will be rejected, and they don't want yet another demonstration of how little Westminster cares about them.

    The DUP response has been to cling ever closer to their abuser - to lionise the likes of Hoey and Habib and Frost, and never ever to call them to account for what they have done, and continue to do, to NI. There is no future in such a self-hating unionism. Unionists need to recover confidence in the union, and to develop a leadership with confidence in the union, who won't be afraid to assert the needs of the union at Westminster, and who expect to be listened to when they do. If unionism can't do that, it's finished, the GFA notwithstanding.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    It looks like the penny has finally dropped for the DUP, despite everyone else screaming it at them for years.

    Mr Paisley (North Antrim) told the Commons: ““And I think it’s very obvious to some people that there is a fear that the Conservative and Unionist Party, which governs this nation, is actually a nationalist party, an English nationalist party, that is not concerned about a border in the Irish Sea, but is concerned about a red wall on the mainland island, and that’s what eats them up every single day.

    “If that is their only concern then that Government is betraying the union and the unionist people, and that’s the reality of where we are this evening.”

    And only 100 years after Carson's speech about being a puppet.


    Had the DUP not bitten the hand that fed them and accepted May's deal then NI would still be safely in the Union for the foreseeable future or at the very worst there would time to make things better. The Tories won't ever forget that the DUP shafted a Tory PM either. Payback's a bitch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭FraserburghFreddie


    Within a system utilising devolved governments there will always be some degree of disagreement and bickering.

    Difference of opinion doesn't mean there is real discord.When there are disagreements within the EU they aren't viewed as brussels 'doesn't love us anymore.'Anyway,reading through this thread,the more republican minded posters appear unwilling to propose any suggestions for integrating Unionists,which isn't very smart as it gives no incentive or indication it would be better in a ui.



  • Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Integrating NI economically with ROI will likely not work, and be a massive financial drain on the ROI. For decades.

    If an organised, industrial, economic powerhouse like Germany still struggles to economically manage the former East Germany, where relative poverty and economic disenfranchisement is high, how will our disorganised shower manage with NI?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,776 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The 'government' said no such thing. A rogue PM, who also pronised there'd be no border in the Irish sea decided he would buy some gullible votes by giving a personal view, which he is entitled to. Take it to the bank and get what that promise is worth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,776 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Let unionists step up and tell us what they want.

    Unionists live happily here as it is as do all kinds of identities.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Look at how much east-west trade with GB has already shifted to north south.

    Last year north-south trade increased by €2.5Bn. Overall volume of ROI to GB trade remained constant at €25bn but the balance of trade shifted €5Bn in favour of ROI. Compare those numbers to NI's actual GDP less intervention and govt funded public service. And there's more checks, controls and regulations coming in over the rest of the year.

    It's a €5Bn loss of trade that GB needs to make up for with "oven ready deals" just to stay still or they can cut expenses like NI.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,622 ✭✭✭votecounts


    Just leaving this tweet from a DUP Councillor. Seriously if there is a United Ireland, Unionists would want to make some effort to integrate themselves with the NatioNALIST Community. But 100 years later, they have never made an effort. I hope they remember it's a democracy and if the majority votes for it, they will have to live with it.

    https://twitter.com/Dale_Pankhurst/status/1493004596557619202



  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭FraserburghFreddie


    Correct me if I'm wrong but the protocol wasn't put in place to increase Irish trade.It was meant to keep trade between mainland Britain and NI stable.If that's not the case then perhaps opposition to the protocol in its current format is reasonable. GB doesn't have to make up trade,the protocol needs tweeking to do what it was meant to do.

    In answer to what do unionists want?The thread is about what Ireland can do to integrate them into a UI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    dont you understand there wont be a republic of ireland? the north wont need to offer anything plus it will cease to exist as well. its what the combined union of the two parts make and how will that money that'll be the question.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,776 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So you want an offer is it?

    We have to guess what Unionism wants?

    We have a modern, outward looking country that has no issues with anyone's identity, and we are also in the EU, which embraces and supports the will of the people here, whatever it may be.

    If that isn't enough of an offer then you need to engage and say what you want.



  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭Speedline


    The protocol is there to avoid a hard border as per the GFA. It also allows NI to stay in the EU for trading.

    If there was a hard border, NI would be out of the EU but they could get by on English sausages and there would be no need for a protocol.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    i can see why you think what you think. But you just don’t get it.

    our so-called abuser is lavishing £billions of gifts on us every year.

    you are not getting that the union is voluntary. It is made up of many constituent parts of which not one has choose to leave in the last hundred years - there was one just before that and it took it generations to recover.

    if Cornwall want to leave then I wouldn’t be twisting it’s arm to stay. I would be sorry to see it go but it would go with my blessing, in the same way as Eire decided to go.

    if it helps you understand. It is like a family. NI is definitely a troublesome child. We get given massive amounts of pocket money, aren’t charged any rent and keep crashing our car and the family keep paying to fix it. I am sure the rest are frustrated with us but they’re not kicking us out. Mind you our cousins down the road were keen to take us in if we ever get kicked out as they feel their family is not complete without us, but I think their desire to have us live with them is decreasing fast.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,776 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Are you going to try tell us that this type of thing would never happen in the UK?

    This kind of thing happens everywhere, across the world religion foster hate and intolerance of one another. My own COI children have experienced it too.

    I fully recognise that it happens in places and could be intolerance of religions or sexuality.

    If you are somehow saying it is unique to here then please show the comparative data on that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,618 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I was simply responding to these two comments of yours just on this page.

    ….and I absolutely was not saying it was unique to roi. You would not catch me making statements like these about the UK.

    “We have a modern, outward looking country that has no issues with anyone's identity,”

    “Unionists live happily here as it is as do all kinds of identities.”



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