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Sacked doctor sues former employer for refusing to call trans-woman "she"

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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I have no idea what this even means 🙄

    I believe Irish people have a very unhealthy attitude with regards to the naked body, probably because of the Catholic church. I think it would be great if they got over that attitude. I'm not sure how you see anything hypocritical there.............



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    No, it’s a fact, I’m not suggesting anything about you personally only that you’re running into the same difficulty as people who do attempt to whip up prejudice against other people, while at the same time you’re making the point that it’s unreasonable to expect that there would be men in womens spaces.

    I don’t think anyone is suggesting the expectation at least is unreasonable. What I’m talking about is the reality when such circumstances might occur - in my experience at least, people don’t actually care, but I’m aware of a tiny minority of people who do.

    In much the same way - the vast majority of medical practitioners don’t subject their patients to their personal beliefs, but I’m aware of a minority who do. In reality when those circumstances occur, it isn’t their patients who are at fault, it is the medical practitioner who fails to keep their personal opinions to themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,232 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    That nonsense all comes from the same well of ignorance.

    Trans people just want to rape you, strange men just want to rape you.

    It's a remedial view based on irrational fears.

    Again though, none of that has anything to do with this guy acting like a bit of a díck and trying to blame poor Jesus for that fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    I think you’ll find a lot of people will care and not in the nice way if it ever does become a reality.

    As for the medical practitioner in this case, I don’t see how this topic even came up unless “”she”” kept forcing the point that “”she”” is a woman when “”she”” has male biology. I just don’t buy that there is some evangelical doctor just waiting to force his religious views on a patient. Just like if you take a Volkswagen to a mechanic and tell him it’s a Ferrari, he’s not going to pretend it is because that doesn’t benefit anyone except your own delusion and won’t fix the problem your Volkswagen has.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    But that’s exactly why I’m of the opinion that in my experience - people don’t care. On the few occasions when I have been in women’s bathrooms, nobody made anything of it, there were a few women who were bemused, and then there were a few women who were amused. I was just mortified tbh cos it’s not something I do intentionally, I use the bathrooms for their intended purpose in any case, I expect that anyone in them is using them for their intended purpose. I don’t think anyone expects people in there who do not intend to use the bathrooms for their intended purpose.

    The topic came up in training when the question was asked about people who are transgender, and how to address them. The course facilitator informed them of the DWPs policy which is to refer to people as they prefer to be addressed. The doctor immediately made the course facilitator aware of his inability to adhere to the policy due to his religious beliefs.

    You might not buy it, but there he is, Dr. David Mackereth, an evangelical doctor waiting to force his religious views on patients in violation of the GMC code of conduct first of all, and his employers policies second. He has an expectation that the rules which apply to all doctors and employees in those circumstances, didn’t apply to him. He believes his employers were unreasonable, and he sent them an email suggesting as much, that their decisions would have a terrible impact on the nation, all because as willing as they were to bend over backwards for him to try and accommodate him, nothing less than recognising that he was above the rules, would do. He was offered further support by his employers, but he declined, and then decided to claim he was the victim of unlawful discrimination by his employers.

    Does Dr. David Mackereth still seem like a reasonable individual to you? The tribunal even describes him as an unreliable witness, and they had plenty of evidence that this individual who was so indignant about honesty and integrity, couldn’t keep his story straight, couldn’t produce evidence to verify his claims, and couldn’t reasonably have believed many of his own claims against his employers!


    I wouldn’t expect you just to take my word for it though, I’m simply represented by a pseudonym on the Internet 🤔 Here’s the judgement of the Employment Tribunal in full -

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d9b0c8aed915d35cff2225d/Dr_David_Mackereth_v_The_Department_for_Work_and_Pensions___Advanced_Personnel_Management_Group__UK__Ltd_1304602_-_2018_-_Judgment_and_reasons.pdf



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,873 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    What do you mean they can do them now.

    So are you saying men currently are allowed walk into a women's dressing rooms and expose themselves in front or women and children?

    Men are currently allowed go in and use women's toilets also at the moment.

    Also how can men currently go to women's prisons?

    Maybe these are all allowed happen currently I just had no idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    He seems like quite a reasonable person to me because like many others, he has the integrity to point blank reject these notions that speech can be dictated or you should completely suspend everything you know to be true to accommodate someone’s feelings- an absolutely fair position to hold given that he deals in biology and medical issues, issues that affect men and women differently.

    Just not seeing anything at all here to paint this guy in a bad light - he is a victim of this creeping ideology that believes they have a right to flip established biology and speech on its head to suit themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,873 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    So how many attacks by predators entering women's facilities under the premise of being trans do you think is okay just to class it as rare?

    I am not sure how I am being paranoid by talking about predators using this to carry out attacks on women, this will happen and most likely is already happening.

    I am not sure of the comparison to family members because the general public can't do anything about it.

    But stopping men from entering women's spaces is something that could be stopped.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    How many attacks in a women's prison do you need, to justify a completely unrelated doctor being rude and inconsiderate in breach of his terms of employment to a patient and customer of their employer?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    He’s a victim of nothing only his own self-importance. You’re ignoring the fact that he is a medical practitioner held to the standards set by the GMC, his employers and legislation in the UK. He clearly imagines he is above the same standards which apply to anyone in his position, which is why his employers no longer require his services.

    He would be a liability in their employment, not to mention the damage he claims he should be able to inflict on customers health with his arrogant behaviour in service of his own ideals which are not supported by religion, science, medicine. His only concern is that he would be “cutting his professional throat” by taking the position he did. He’s an utter drama queen 🙄



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  • Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    “He would be a liability in their employment, not to mention the damage he claims he should be able to inflict on customers health with his arrogant behaviour in service of his own ideals which are not supported by religion, science, medicine. His only concern is that he would be “cutting his professional throat” by taking the position he did. He’s an utter drama queen 🙄


    Are you sure you aren’t describing the patient here?



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    there is nothing stopping a man walking into a female changing room or toilet



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I’m very sure. There were no patients involved in this case which involves a doctor unwilling to refrain from forcing his evangelical views on patients and customers of the DWP. It was an employment tribunal in which the doctor claimed that he was the victim of unlawful discrimination against him by his employer. Even the thread title is misleading as it is not representative of the facts of this case.

    You’re perfectly entitled to view this man’s position as reasonable. His employers, the professional organisation of which he is a member, and the Employment Tribunal who are responsible for interpreting the legislation which applies, did not. He is perfectly entitled to hold his personal views, and he is entitled to express his personal views, just not while he is attending to his patients. His expectation that he should be able to do so, was deemed to be unreasonable.

    It appears you want to ignore reality when it suits, while imagining that anyone else isn’t as entitled as you are to do the very same thing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,873 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Yes I am aware of that but I assume someone can make a complaint and get them thrown out.

    Have we any law in place that states a man can legally enter women's toilets and use female changing rooms where staff cannot throw them out?



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    there is no law stating that men cannot enter a female toilet or changing room.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,232 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    You have proved my point, irrational fears lead to hyper emotion which at best clouds the ability to rationally consider a scenario even a hypothetical one.

    The reality is in the unlikely even a "predator" pretends to be "trans" and attacks someone in a bathroom, if that "predator" is thwarted then he doesn't say to himself, "you know what time to hang up the ould predator boots and stop the assaults".

    But at the risk of repeating myself, what pretend trans people and toilets have to do with this topic is highly confusing, it's beyond farce at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Trans people have always existed. Im sure trans women they also used toilets in the 1980s too.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    When did you have to show your birth cert to use the toilet?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,873 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Why are toilets broke out for men and female?

    Why would you need a birth cert to know if a person is male or female?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    I’d be turfed out the door and arrested if I tried that in my leisure centre.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Money to be made there. Big compo claim for offending your femininity



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,930 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Historically, public bathrooms were built only with men in mind, women weren’t considered as it was commonly accepted that women’s place was in the home, relegated to the domestic domain, if you will, with every attempt made to inhibit their participation in public life. Public bathrooms was only the small stuff, but wouldn’t you know human biology being what it is - everyone gets caught short in public at some point in their lives.

    It was with much resistance that eventually it was accepted that women should also have access to the facilities in furtherance of their equal participation in public life. This latest stunt to try and prohibit people who are transgender from using public facilities is equally nothing more than an attempt to relegate a group of people to having less rights than everyone else on the basis of their gender identity.

    It’s certainly not based upon biology because it’s proponents arguments consist of arguing on the basis of associating abhorrent behaviour with sex, and suggesting that on the basis of their sex, anyone could present a threat to other people. There is no reasonable basis for their arguments as they have not previously attempted to prevent people from being harmed by people who don’t care for anyone else’s rights. The argument only arises in the context of prohibiting people who are transgender from participating as equals in society in accordance with their gender identity.

    It’s upsetting people who maintain that everyone else in society should adhere to their beliefs. The impact on the nation of democracy is that we have laws which operate independently of anyones personal beliefs.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't know but I assume the public order act would be grounds to be moved on or fined if they don't comply.

    without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is acting in a manner which consists of loitering in a public place in circumstances, which may include the company of other persons, that give rise to a reasonable apprehension for the safety of persons or the safety of property or for the maintenance of the public peace,

    the member may direct the person so suspected to do either or both of the following, that is to say:

    (i) desist from acting in such a manner, and

    (ii) leave immediately the vicinity of the place concerned in a peaceable or orderly manner.

    (2) It shall be an offence for any person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, to fail to comply with a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána under this section.

    (3) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

    I'd imagine purposely using a facility which is exclusively intended for use by the opposite sex would be grounds for reasonable apprehension.

    I haven't looked into it really and I suppose there might be caveats, but realistically, a man using a women only facility, while not illegal, isn't, and shouldn't be acceptable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Under Section 18, "any person who commits, in public, any act in such a way as to offend modesty or cause scandal or injure the morals of the community shall be guilty . . . the person may receive a fine of up to €634.87 or, if the court decides, they may be sent to prison for up to six months".

    I'd imagine a biological man getting undressed and exposing his/her cock in a female dressing room would offend modesty and/or cause scandal, especially if there were female children/teenagers there.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Any man exposing himself in any public place to anybody would be guilty of an offence. Obviously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo




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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    A biological man getting undressed in a female dressing room would be guilty of it.



This discussion has been closed.
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