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Sacked doctor sues former employer for refusing to call trans-woman "she"

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    So if your child, assigned male at birth, identifies as female and expresses themselves as female they will use the ladies toilet, right? And you will support them in that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,098 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    And if theres only unisex then you won't let your child use the toilet....

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There is no real body of evidence that trans women in changing rooms in Ireland pose a threat

    Did I say there was?

    The other poster made the claim that such violence never happened. Zero. However, It has happened in the past. That's all... It's not a statement that Trans people are a danger any more than biological women are... it's simply a counter to the claim in absolute innocence.

    Other posters sought to talk about violence by Trans people in toilets. I didn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    You didn't raise it , not accusing you of anything but if we take the logic used to attempt to ban trans women from changing rooms then applying it equally would see men banned from a lot of places as statistically cis men are a higher threat. Slippery slope



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    When did I ever suggest that was the case?

    I have stated on numerous occasions that I have no issue with unisex toilet facilities.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No. For as long as I am responsible for them, they would use the male bathroom if a unisex toilet was unavailable. Because they are male.

    Assigned male at birth? Nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,098 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Well then whats the issue at all. You are ok with your child going into toilets where there could be cis women, cis men, trans women or trans men.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Look, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that the risks to cis women of occasionally having to share the ladies toiled with a trans woman are very much lower than the risks to trans women of routinely having to share the mens toilet with cis men. A purely utilitarian calcuation would suggest that the risk of harm is minimised by allowing everyone to use the toilet appropriate to the gender they express.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I am indeed. But I am also not ok with men being in places that only women are permitted or women being in places that only men are permitted.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We don't need to embrace extremes in countering the opening up of gender segregated areas. That's the problem with both sides of this debate. The urge to jump to extremes, either to make all Trans people innocent, or to make them a threat.

    Privacy and personal space. That's why we have segregated toilets and changing rooms. That women want to have a personal space only available to other women. That desire is less common among men, but it remains the same for many.. who do want to retain spaces that are specific to a particular gender.

    The push by Trans activists seeks to make the discussion emotional, and bypass the scientific fact that a biological man, cannot transition enough to become the same as a biological woman. The physical transition is crude, and the mental one is decidedly lacking. As such, the gender segregated spaces should remain as they are, allowing women to block entry by males who claim to have changed their gender.

    This is an attempt to change established social norms. It's not about bringing in something new to restrict peoples movements/choices. We've always had these restrictions regarding gender. That some Trans people bypassed those social norms, doesn't change that they exist... and should continue to exist.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,494 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I have had good and bad experiences with Trans people

    Do expand?

    As you said yourself they are very much a tiny minority, so where do you encounter all these Trans people?

    Genuinely curious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    I'm glad you brought that up. Any policy is founded on good science. Obviously I'm being facetious but this is my point. There is literally very little evidence that legally recognised women pose a threat. Were we to use an evidence based policy approach then men would be on equal grounds culpable of a lot more. Social norms shift all the time. Slavery is no longer acceptable for a reason. Society traverses a line of enlightenment.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I used to be very active in the Gay community in my 20s, and attended a lot of the events. If you spend time in gay bars or nightclubs abroad, you'll encounter a range of Trans people.. especially in Asia, where such beliefs have been more common for ages. In Australia, which has a substantial Asian population, there's a fair chance of meeting Trans people through the gay community.

    And no, I'm not going to get into a discussion over my experiences. I did that in another thread, and I've learned that boards isn't particularly interested in taking such experiences at face-value, and posters like anna will twist them to suit the agenda they're pushing.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Has he called them all "a threat" like you suggested? Or were you just lying/exaggerating?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,098 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I did. That's why I said you were exaggerating or lying.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's funny that it's mostly male posters who are making a stand for women's rights to their own segregated toilets.

    Why is it always about toilets? It's really strange the obsessions with toilets



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The irony is that you're the one creating a problem where there is none. Traditional social norms about segregated gender spaces work.. it's only the demands for access by Trans activists and some Trans people that is rocking the boat. And no, it's not a social norm that Trans women use women's toilets.. otherwise there wouldn't be such concern over the topic now.

    As for my supposed attitude, you repeatedly make judgments that aren't based on what is written in the thread. In fact, you refuse to accept what is written so that you can accuse others of bigotry, and disrespect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,098 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I accept what is written where you negatively describe transition above. And yes your comments there absolutely are disrespectful. Im sorry you had bad experiences with trans people in the past but holding onto those negative experiences and judging all trans people negatively as a result isnt healthy.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,494 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Fair enough, but you are open to the possibility the problem or at least some of could have been you?

    You are the common denominator.

    Just something to think about.

    But I respect your decision not to post about it.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's not. It's about the rights of women (and men) to have a reasonable expectation that places intended solely for their sex, are only accessible to people of that particular sex. It's not purely about toilets. Toilets are just one common example.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Trans women represent the same threat that biological men do, because in spite of the claims, physically and mentally they're still men.

    Now, I don't consider violence in toilets and changing rooms to be an issue. That was foisted on to me by that other poster, when I objected to their claim that Trans people were never, ever, involved in violence. Which was inaccurate. That violence is rare, but it still exists. I'm not going to keep repeating myself on this.

    There is no basis for a comparison between issues such as slavery and Trans people. Just as there's no realistic comparison between Trans people and homosexuality as a social issue. The situations were/are entirely different. This is the case of men claiming to be women wanting access to female only spaces... Or men claiming to be women wanting to be treated exactly the same as biologically born females... science doesn't support the belief, nor does common sense when considering the range of experience that people gain through childhood/teens, and so, mentally they're going to remain male, in spite of the desire to be female.

    When that changes, and is proven to be scientifically true, then I will wholeheartedly support trans access to such spaces or to be treated the same as a woman.. but not now, when the technology is not there to make it happen.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    haha.. why would you post that? I'm in my mid-40s, have led a varied life, and I'm very aware of my past.

    As for being the common denominator... unlikely, because my views are tempered by personal experience. Few people on threads such as these, will have much in the way of actual experience with Trans people, and are simply relying on second-hand knowledge/perspectives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Despite the medical evidence showing they are not (brain structure), the fact most get vagioplastys, it been declassified by psychiatry as s disorder and legally they being recognised as their gender . How much more do you need.


    The topic of slavery is entirely relevant as you raised in discourse changes in societal norm so for both our sakes I'm giving you a comparator to hang your point on



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,494 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Indeed, your "personal experience".

    Like I said, something to mull over, or not, up to you.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Okay. Now, I'm simply going to ignore you, and your attempts to misrepresent what has been written to justify your own intolerance of other views.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Despite the medical evidence showing they are not (brain structure), the fact most get vagioplastys, it been declassified by psychiatry as s disorder and legally they being recognised as their gender . How much more do you need.

    First off, American Psychology is extremely politicised, and often funded by private organisations with their own biases. Secondly, psychology is still a relatively soft science, lacking extensive evidence to support many of it's viewpoints especially over extended periods. So.. considering the U-Turn that psychologists have taken on Trans issues, supplying a wide range of vague (or theoretical) research papers, but little substantial positive evidence, I'll remain sceptical.

    As for science, I'll wait until science can provide the full physical transition... because it can't right now. In addition, I tend to view personality, including that of our sex, as being based on experience. The experience of growing up a particular gender strongly influences how we perceive the world. So.. if an adult male transitions as an adult, he will retain the perspectives of being male, rather than magically switch to being female. Science doesn't support such a shift or provide any way for it to happen. It is different with those individuals born a particular way, have grown up by that opposite gender, but most Trans people are not the same as them.

    The use of slavery is redundant as a comparison. It's common on these kind of thread to introduce other topics as comparisons, in the attempt to blur the waters, and add an extra emotional element, usually connected with guilt over the past. There is no need for comparisons, because the topic should be able to stand on it's own without needing the tenuous support of unrelated issues.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "The gender they express"

    Could I ask how the 'woman' gender is expressed and how the 'man' gender is expressed so I can figure out which bathroom to use?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sorry can you quote the science on 'brain structure'? Are you claiming there is a 'man brain' and a 'woman brain' and that transwomen have the latter? Is there any decent evidence, at all, for this assertion?

    Most don't get vaginoplasties, I have no idea where you get that from.

    This is a good example of the naivete that surrounds this conversation. People think that transwomen are Hayley from Coronation Street, or Jan Morris to use an example from a bygone era. Some are. But many (probably most) are not. Why do people think sex offenders are suddenly claiming to be women?

    It's a real issue and it should be discussed seriously, not on the basis of ignorance



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    I think there are a few major issues that cause fightback with regard the area of trans.

    One is that the bar is set too low for someone to declare and worse still be offically accepted to some degree that they are trans.

    This last part is due to the modern concept that feelings trump everything else.

    We have the farce I have highlighted where kids declare their gender on a daily basis and this has to be accepted by teachers lest they get reprimanded.

    We have the farce where a convicted rapist declared themselves to be trans and demanded the right to be moved to a womens prison. WTF.

    We had the farce where a male student declared himself trans and then entered a women's race.

    And this was to prove the point about how damn easy it is and how stupid and relaxed in acceptance authorities are these days.

    FFS this is all lunacy.

    Fair enough someone feels they are trapped in the wrong body, goes for counseling, then goes on hormone treatments and eventually surgery.

    But the mullarkey where a bloke turns up one day claiming he is a woman, and it does seem to be usually blokes that are doing this, is a joke.

    This is one of the things that is most contentious for a lot of people.


    Another major cause for fightback is the absolute mullarkey that a transwoman is as much a woman as any biological woman.

    Yes they can have vaginoplasty and breasts added, they can have hormone treatment, laser treatment and even if they look great, they will never be truly a woman.

    Also this claim becomes even more ludicrous when the fact is a lot of transwomen still have their male appendages.

    And lastly the trans rights movement appears to be led by some absolutely obnoxious individuals.

    BTW a lot of this centres around trans women rather than trans men as the affects on women is far greater than what will ever be placed on men.

    I am not allowed discuss …



This discussion has been closed.
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