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Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Avenger2020


    Yes but it seems the authorities clearly prefer building hotels over residential accommodation.

    Look at how many families are living in hotel rooms - subsidised majorly by the state. Look at how the “purpose-built” student accommodation in Dublin city centre quickly became a hotel during the pandemic despite protest from residents in the area.

    also look at communal living proposals - more discussed than building two-bedroom appartments.

    also commuting 2 days would be ok. So I loose 4 hours each day for two days. Means I can collect my child on other days. Wife can WFH 2 days Im in Dublin as in private sector small firm. Easy peasy. 3 days brings in issues of Child care - so hard to find these days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Avenger2020


    Also, the line manager or A/Sec would designate the days of course. For example Wednesdays are busy for sectional meetings in my field so obvs that day in office.

    Im not proposing total anarchy xD

    but currently they say go in any day - I went in and met no one. Waste of time. Should do anchor days. A sheep dog would be better at organising this!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    yeah similar - located at x but can be reassigned at their discretion. The address on my contract doesnt actually exist anymore so I am covered by the second part. Covers everywhere really



  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭Sammy96


    That's very interesting, thanks for the replies on the contracts.

    This certainly differs from my perspective where I don't have a place of work in my contract only a general headquarters with no term stating that the headquarters is my place of work.

    Perhaps an oversight. Very interesting indeed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭Burgo


    Yeah it states on your CS contract your place of work, as when i moved location it was by a local arrangement with my manager. It was only official when I was promoted and the new location was stated in the new contract.


    edit:

    I also know there is a caveat in that you can be asked to move location once it is within a certain radius (50km i think?) of either your residence or current place of business. This would have less impact of departments who have offices outside of dublin, but i know this was used to move staff from offices around Dublin City pre pandemic many of whom did not appreciate it as you can imagine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭Burgo


    Just on your point about "once the work is being done then why not facilite people". I had being speaking to my departments union rep about the blending working policy, since it seems that it will be some variety of a 3/2 split and why not any thought as to a full wfh option. That was apparently not a consideration for forsa, let alone something they were going to discuss with DPER.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7 martysparty





  • Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭doc22




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,342 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Had a senior meeting today in our place....it was heated....a lot of people don't want to go back even for a day a week...lot of resistance

    I know a few people have moved well outside of Dublin...seems a bit of a mad move the WFH thing wasn't going to be forever at least not full time..



  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭Sammy96


    They were right to make the decision themselves. Why should they wait to move and ask their employer if it is okay?

    Many of my friends have also done this. Especially those who were paying massive rents and could see what type of house the could buy compared to a box terrace in Dublin. Two years is a long time and none of us can say for certain that covid is over, especially come winters.

    They will try all they can to get near full wfh or one day a week in Dublin. If they don't they will move on. One has already moved on. They left on good terms as both couldn't offer what was needed.

    It is an employee's market.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,342 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Yeah thats all grand if you are willing to quit the job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭laoisgem


    I think anyone thinking full time wfh would be considered are absolutely mental, as previously stated, 3 days wfh and 2 days in office would be a good outcome, even 2 days wfh and 3 days in office is a bonus in my eyes at least.



  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭Sammy96


    It is grand as they are. They have been planning this for two years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,342 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Ah I was talking in general but ah yeah good luck to your mates.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,713 ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    I'm back in full time from next month and with that at stupid (to me) hours that I didn't like prepandemic.


    They've had 2 years to work on this and find a solution to suit staff. They've hired a new cohort of staff and didn't think to hire part time evening and weekend staff as why rock the boat to shift patterns that are so ingrained.


    I had reservations about moving to public sector a few years ago, and it's all because of how slow things are or the amount of people who "it's not their job"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,789 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    They had no way of knowing the COVID and wfh would last 2yrs. Might have been 3 months, 6 months etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,990 ✭✭✭billyhead


    That's what it will be i.e. 3 days in the office.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    The general sense appears to be that either take blended working (3 days in and 2 at home) or else flexi time full time in the office. I would rather the latter tbh. Unions might have something to say about it though. Id be chuffed with a mix of WFH and flexi!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Had my first day back in the office for a couple of months this week, and I think my team will be joining me next week. Some thoughts and reflections:

    • No effort has been made to reconfigure the office layout in any way, and no plans are in place to do so. That's a shame as we were packed in like sardines before, the place badly needed a spruce up, and we've missed an opportunity to rejig it. We got some hand sanitiser and wipes to protect us though!
    • I know my productivity dipped in the office and I had to get a shove on when I got home to get a few jobs out the door. Some of it was people popping their head in the door for a chat, and some of that will calm down in a while, but straight away I can see that we (my team) will need to give some thought to how we use our time both in the office and at home strategically. Some jobs are done much better at home, others can be done better in the office.
    • Was on an Inter-Departmental call involving senior staff in about 4-5 organisations, it struck me that all of the staff from my Department were the only ones in the office. Funnily enough I actually lost functionality by going into the office as I couldn't use my video.
    • We'll have to figure out how to support participation in video meetings in an open plan office setting. It's difficult to concentrate and contribute when you have a lot of people milling about around you. We have a huge shortage of meeting rooms and breakout space and that's a new way of working that the organisation will need to have a think about.
    • A lot of late work and communication at all hours of the night crept in during work from home, some of which was helpful and kept things moving and some of which wasn't (e.g. emails in the early hours of the morning). I think it's going to be a culture shock for some people when work actually finishes at a certain time in the evening when you leave the office and go home.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    Yeah attending online meetings in an open plan setting is a challenge!!! - especially when you have a lack of private space. Kinda defeats the purpose of being in the office but that is still something we are working on - but most people are opting to wfh where possible and do meetings etc at home.

    I also find myself less productive in the office - and definitely I do my work better at home.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Video calls are absolutely fantastic for us because we end up on a lot of inter-Departmental groups. Internally we also have staff dotted around different buildings too. Meetings run so much more efficiently online, they're easier for people to attend and it saves and awful lot of shuffling around between different buildings around town. So even when we're back in the office more frequently we'll still be doing them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    100% agree - online meetings are the way to go. Its just the logistics of numerous people in an open plan office having different online meetings at the same time. - can be loud. Even attending the same online meeting while in an open plan space - you can hear the meeting from all angles 🤣🤣

    Or staff not using their headphones when in a meeting when at their desk - simple things like that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,789 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Our meeting rooms have their own Teams Account and room cameras & mic's.

    But not enough rooms for meeting was always a problem since we moved open plan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    yes ours have cameras and mics but just not enough of them. And they arent soundproof 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭Burgo


    I've always worked in an open plan office, I wonder what it would be like to have a cubicle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,789 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Watch the movie office space...



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Avenger2020


    I know. My back is gone. Been working on a low desk for two years now. I should have bought a standing desk if I knew it would be so long. Knowing my luck I ll buy it now and be told to go into the office 5 days. xD



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Avenger2020


    So we’ll miss the walks to other buildings etc. The chats before meetings . No doubt Management will opt for online meetings to get most out of our time. Also lack of meeting rooms a big issue.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Avenger2020


    They haven’t given one thought about all this. Valid issues.

    some departments will be WFH throughout March while we have been told to go in. Open office space will impact meeting quality and quality of the work of colleagues within earshot.



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Avenger2020


    On the Contract issue, my contract hours state flexi-time. This was disbanded during Covid for no valid reason. It is a fundamental change to the contract - working hours. What was the reason? I still have a manager managing my time. Just now he has more of it. No increase in pay. But on higher management hours.

    i get the need to change office location due to offices being too small during a pandemic. But changing working hours ?? The employer has the right to change anything? The employee just accepts automatically? EU employment law??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    we kinda have some protocols around this but again its in flux. Im public sector and we havent been asked to go back but we can if we like.

    Open place definitely impacts my work - especially with lack of private space for meetings and online meetings taken at your desk. Its a weird situation for us anyway. Some colleagues take all their online calls and meetings at their desk as they want to be in the office - no real protocols yet in place but the majority still opt to work remotely still.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    Ive never been a fan of spending most of my work day getting to a different location for a meeting....or the chats before meetings. Online meetings are way more efficient. What we are kind of seeing now is a hyrid version of meetings but again space is the issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Avenger2020


    To the person who was complaining about the waiting times while on call with the public service above.

    the Central Bank has released a report today outlining “excessive” waiting times of 2 hours or more and a high abandonment rate of calls across all of the five main retail banks in Ireland.

    on their salary and expenses best get a job there. Nobody complains about banks eventhough they need our money!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,464 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Outside of Dublin and outside of the civil service, travelling to meetings (and conferences, seminars) is a great excuse for senior PS staff to claim travel expenses and be unavailable. Someone could easily make 150+ quid "profit" in travel/subsistence for attending one short meeting and then "take their time" getting back to the office afterwards.

    For this reason I expect a major pushback against conducting meetings online. I already heard some of it when people thought that the pandemic was coming to an end in summer 2020 - Teams is rubbish, Zoom is rubbish, meetings should be conducted in person, let's get back to normality. Junior staff ordered back to their desks, senior staff coming and going as they please.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Yeah I'd definitely be an advocate for that, can go for a walks at lunchtime if you want! Glad to be getting the most out of my time and getting through more work.

    I've also seen certain regional based teams coming up regularly for maybe one meeting and then going home again on the train when they could have easily been dialling in, or scheduling more into their day when they were up in HQ. You'd have to wonder about the motivations there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Avenger2020


    Wow. There’s a great public interest story there. Tax payers money n all.

    i wonder how much senior management claimed in expenses for meetings that could be done more productively online.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    Im PS but in Dublin - when i first joined staff still travelled first class internationally and had accounts with numerous expensive restuarants for lunches/dinners. The good old days.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What exactly does your contract state?

    Because a right to flexible working hours was never part of the civil service contract, it was always considered a privilege, not a right, and could be withdrawn at any time as Departments (or your manager) saw fit.

    Even different departments operate flexi time differently - some offices don't operate it at all.

    Quote from the Circular 11/2013

    18. Management has the responsibility and the right to actively manage flexible working arrangements (flexitime) in their organisations to ensure that Departments/Offices can meet their business needs across the full working day. Flexitime is only possible as long as it supports and enhances the efficient operation of Departments/Offices. In particular, all areas must always be appropriately staffed during the working day, including lunch breaks; all arrangements must ensure that this is consistently the case. 



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You'd be surprised how many departments / offices do not have the equipment for video conferencing.

    Mine did, but it was unreliable, and often glitchy. Only for we have lots of very knowledgeable tech heads in our office who knew how to sort it themselves, it would never have been used if we'd been waiting for tech support to come down from Head Office.

    Ours is being seriously upgraded at the moment, to coincide with the move to hot desking / no assigned desks. Lots of break out rooms planned for meetings.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,685 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    neither did I but senior management would have and possibly HR. Not sure anyone needs an office - just a space for meetings. That is what we are short of.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Usually you get a single occupany office when you get AP. No guarantee of that any more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    staff not using their headphones when in a meeting when at their desk

    No jury would convict.

    Seriously, though, it's been two years. How people don't know now to mute themselves when not talking, and to invest in even a rudimentary headset with mic (or request one from their I.T.), especially if doing meetings in an open plan room... I think part of the problem, obviously, is that the public service don't hire enough gamers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    true 😁 we bought headsets for everyone aswell but yeah - basic cop on would tell you to use a headset and change/blur your background if having a meeting in an open plan setting but what can you do. Work in progress. Nobody wants to attend someone else's meeting by accidentally appearing in the background.

    At least at present we havent been asked to return and so the majority of staff are opting not to but there are always some who chose to go into the office and do their remote meetings from there.

    We definitely need more structure for whenever we are required to return but like a lot of posters here we havent heard anything yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭dublin_Horse


    Just a thought. If the CS went fully remote, what would happen if there was a strike? A strike works because there is a picket line that workers wouldn't cross or don't want to be seen crossing by other colleagues. If people are working from home, they could say they were on strike and just work away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,052 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    Dept if health moved all their APs onto the open floor when they moved from Hawkins House. Some of the offices were twice the size of my sitting room.

    Only the po kept and office that wasn't much bigger than 2 toilet cubicles put together



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,685 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Strike? I'd have to picket my own front door LOL

    Another scenario could be people saying they are working on the strike day so they get paid, but not doing any work...

    Strikes in the civil service are very rare and generally last half a day.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    The big conclusion from this thread is that 1. The public services stood tall in many areas during the pandemic and showed they could perform remotely, and 2. Many managers want to revert to type and reverse all the gains made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,803 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Yeah, that would be my takeaway from what I have seen as well on the ground tbh



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