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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • 17-02-2022 7:31pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,106 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Mod Note:

    If you're new here, please read the charter carefully before posting, especially the guidelines in posting links in lieu of arguments and being able to subtantiate the points you're making. If you're posting here because you've been banned from posting on this topic in other forums, think carefully before you post. Continuing in the same vein is likely to yield the same results.

    Threadbanned:

    @olestoepoke

    @bobowen

    @[Deleted User]

    @[Deleted User]

    @mcsean2163 

    @CalamariFritti



    There hasn't been a thread on this topic in this forum. There's a very active one in the Current Affairs/IMHO forum but easily 80% of the posts in it are posters taking pot shots at each other and not debating the topic. It's become increasingly difficult to wade through the posts there to read anything meaningful.

    The current situation is as follows:

    1. In recent weeks Russia has moved somewhere in the region of 130k troops and military hardware to the northern, eastern and southern borders of Ukraine
    2. Putin has issued a list of 9 demands to NATO including that Ukraine never be allowed to join as a member and that NATO withdraws troops from existing NATO members that border Russia.
    3. NATO has outright rejected these demands
    4. NATO has warned that an attack by Russia on Ukraine is imminent
    5. Russia has denied that they plan on any attack even as they accumulate more and more troops on the border - which they say are there for war games.
    6. Citing intelligence of an imminent attack many western countries have advised their citizens to leave Ukraine. the USA is moving their diplomatic staff from Kiev to the western city of Lviv
    7. World leaders have been flying in to meet both Putln and the Ukrainian president Zelenskyy in recent days and weeks
    8. Earlier this week Russia announced that they were going to some remove troops from the border region.
    9. The USA have said that in actual fact even more Russian troops have arrived
    10. In the past 24 hours there have been cyber attacks, serious shelling within Ukraine and diplomatic expulsions
    11. Joe Biden has claimed an attack will happen in the next few days
    12. Anthony Blincken has said that they expect some form of fals flag attack to be carried out by Russia as a pretext for attacking Ukraine
    13. Vladimir Putin has suggested that western claims are hysterical and has continued to state that Russia do not wish to attack Ukraine


    I think that's about where we're at. I tried to stick to the facts as best as I could.

    Personally I have gone backwards and forwards on whether I thought an attack would happen. Today my feeling is that there is now so much momentum that something is going to happen. I'm not 100% sure of what that will be. Events seem to be accelerating and I don't think they're going to slow down.

    Post edited by Quin_Dub on


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭amacca


    Thanks, was wondering why there wasn't a thread here where a person might learn something..

    I've been flip flopping on the likelihood of it happening myself....with limited knowledge

    I thought no for the longest time on the basis putin can probably achieve a hell of a lot by threatening but not actually doing but I'm not so sure now.

    Anyone know how much pressure he may be under internally? .... is this to stave off challengers or distract the public....is it giving in to pressure from within to do something about NATO from the Russian military etc


    Has he marched himself up a hill there's no coming down from?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,106 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Anyone know how much pressure he may be under internally? .... is this to stave off challengers or distract the public....is it giving in to pressure from within to do something about NATO from the Russian military etc

    On the face of it he doesn't appear to be under any pressure internally. He's been in power for 22 years. He has a submissive media and a neutered opposition. He has created a vertical power structure that means that nobody in his party has anywhere near his power and those closest to him tend to be long term loyalists whose relationship with him, in many cases, stretch back decades.

    At the same time his regime has been more repressive in recent times then at any period in the past two decades. His biggest critic, Alexei Navalny, has been locked up (having previously survived a botched FSB assassination attempt) and now looks set to face new charges to keep him there for the long term. His courts shuttered the oldest civil rights group in the country, Memorial, a few months ago. In the past few years approval ratings for Putin have dropped from the highs of the 80s after the invasion of Crimea to the 60s. This mirrors a fall in GDP/Capita during that same period.

    With regards to Ukraine, nothing has changed in recent years. The conflict in the east has been frozen for years. NATO hasn't been making any overtures to Kiev in recent times. That would make it seem more likely that Putin is reacting to internal pressures than external ones. Perhaps he wants to pull off the same trick that he did in 2014 where the annexation of Crimea, without a shot being fired, was almost universally praised within Russia and led to soaring approval of Putin.

    This isn't Crimea though. Any invasion of Ukraine now will be met with resistance. Russia's army is far more powerful than Ukraine's but it will still incur losses and beyond that it could find itself bogged down in a quagmire facing guerilla tactics from a well armed local population.

    What should be even more troubling for Putin though is the potential for meaningful sanctions against the Russian elite. When Revolutions occur it's almost always disaffected elite who are involved in setting the wheels in motion. Powerful people don't mind playing second fiddle to leaders so long as they get looked after themselves. There's always been an unwritten pact in the upper echelons of Putin's Russian society - The oligarchs don't interfere in politics and stump up cash when required and in return they are free to amass great wealth and funnel it out of the country. Mikhail Khodorkovsky was once the richest man in Russia but he tried to get involved in politics and ended up in prison for his troubles and now lives in exile.

    If Russia invades Ukraine it is very likely that the USA and UK will go after these elites and their families. That means things like potentially preventing their children from studying in elite institutes as well as freezing assets. That's the sort of thing that should concern Putin.

    At the same time, if the Russian army packs up and heads back to their bases without Putin being seen to have achieved any of his demands, he is going to look weak. He likely won't get the same bump in domestic support that he got after Crimea and whatever issues that were troubling him before all of this will till be there. That may be the lesser of two evils for him at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    UK government nuking their golden visa scheme for Russians (not before time to be honest) and looking into canceling current active visas as well.

    That'll put the wind up a lot of the robber-baron Russians connected to Putin if they can't send their kid to Harrow and wash dodgy money through townhouses in Knightsbridge.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,106 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    When referring to the ramp up in repressions in recent times I neglected to mention that there are apparently now more political prisoners in Russian prisons then at any time since the fall of Communism. One of Memorial's sins was detailing this fact (along with not toeing the Kremlin line on air-brushing Stalin's atrocities out of history).



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,307 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The US and allies have done a very effective job at preempting Russian actions, by publishing potential strategies.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,200 ✭✭✭troyzer


    If an attack doesn't happen it'll be because Putin unilaterally backs down on most of his core demands.

    Because the West aren't going to give him what he wants and he isn't able to credibly claim that Russia aren't building up for an invasion.

    So unless you see Putin backing down, some sort of incursion is inevitable. If for no other reason than to throw red meat to the nationalists that his government and media apparatus have been whipping up into a blood frenzy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    An arm-length escalation of the Donbas conflict with mercenaries (new reports have it that private Russian security companies are exiting Africa / Syria en-masse the last few weeks) is another option available to him. In fact, probably a preferable one for him as he'll use the thin veneer of plausible deniability.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,106 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    While this is certainly possible surely this could have been achieved without the mass mobilisation of all of those troops? (Unless you're saying that this is some kind of secondary option)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,106 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    People in the rebel-held city of Donetsk, in eastern Ukraine, will be evacuated to Russia, the area's leader has said.

    Denis Pushilin, who is head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DNR), announced on social media that Russia had agreed to provide accommodation for people leaving.

    Women, children and the elderly should be evacuated first, he added.

    There was no immediate comment from Russian officials or from Kyiv.

    link

    This seems to be significant



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,106 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    So this seems to be their hook:



    I can only assume that this message is for domestic consumption since nobody else is going to swallow such a ludicrous lie.

    It might also be a wink to the NATO bombing of the Serbs in 1999 - a campaign which was partly predicated on the basis that the Serbs were massacring Kosovar Albanian civilians. Serbia (who are close allies of Russia) denied this.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    They have been making that claim for 8 years ,the other day Russia said they had found multiple mass Graves in the areas they control in eastern Ukraine , but they have never produced any evidence to support or back up their own claims ,

    The Russians announced today they were opening a criminal investigations over the shelling of Russians in Ukraine yesterday



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,003 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The Russians have gone far beyond their usual mass exercise bluff they usually do.

    They've gone far beyond anything even the most elaborate exercise would require. The sheer, depth of capability they've put into the area make it hard to believe its just an exercise or bluff. Russia, isn't the force it was, Putin is building it up, but its far behind what it was. The only war Putin can win, is a limited conventional war where the west won't put boots on the ground.

    Creating a conflict external to distract from internal issues is as old as the hills. Putin is not unusual in doing that. He's trying hard to create a false flag event. Economically though it makes no sense for Russia. I don't get it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The multi-strand disinformation and propaganda blitz internally within Russia and externally is astonishing to watch.

    There are of course eager consumers for it in the West, and it's fascinating to watch how the naive on the political fringes will swallow and regurgitate whatever is put out there without thought. And some of the stuff being pumped out it beyond ridiculous.

    Going forward, minimum breathing space should be given to concentrated Russian goverment campaigns of lies to tee-up war and intimidation. Communication strategies from Western governments should be short, sweet, and to the point. Something along the lines of "We have eyes in the sky, we have eyes on the ground. Cut the bullsh*t, you know we know what you're up to. /END"



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    bookmarked



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    Thanks for setting this thread up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭jmreire




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Have a physical headache reading the other thread



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Not the biggest Biden fan but that was a very strong address by him this evening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    What do you guys thing is the ultimate strategy on the Russian side? Create a land bridge to Crimea? Topple the Zelenskyy government?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,241 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    In some form history may repeat itself, but this time in Ukraine. Germany invaded Poland after using a false flag operation. This started WW2.

    Before this Germany occupied Czechoslovakia’s Sudetenland, claiming that ethnic Germans were being abused (e.g., Russians in Crimea). This was followed by annexation (1938). Eventually taking control of the whole country.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Hobgoblin11


    The world is not ready for this, we are just getting over the pandemic

    Dundalk, Co. Louth



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,003 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There's a list of reasons. It's Putins ego certainly. But there's a multitude of strategic, tactical and political reasons for Russia to want to Annex the Ukraine. It's strengthens Russia but to let Ukraine align with the west weakens Russia. Putin wants the old Russia back.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,502 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    My best guess is that right now is the high point for Putin. The world and it's uncle wants to meet with him, domestically it is playing well for him and as he keeps up the pressure, he may well get some kind of concessions (although not as much as he is asking for).

    Everything else will go badly for him. There are a few possible strategic targets:

    1. Take over all of Donbass and have it declared independent or annexed to Russia - this might seem like a win, but it means that he loses any hope of future influence over Ukraine. Prior to 2014, there were approximately 8-9m ethnic Russian or primarily Russian speaking people in the Ukraine, being close to 20% of the total population, and mostly based in Crimea, Donbass, the Eastern Border generally and a smaller amount near Transnistria. Since the people of Crimea and Donbass no longer vote in Ukrainian elections, what was once a fairly even debate between pro Russia and pro Western parts of the country has now become a majory (70% plus) pro Western and positively anti-Russian. By taking over Donbass, Putin loses Ukraine, possibly forever. It would also make Ukraine's admission to NATO fairly tacked on, as they would no longer be in a frozen conflict with Russia.
    2. A sudden overwhelming invasion of Kyiv and installing a puppet government - this is probably the least worst option politically, but is militarily quite difficult. It would involve either fighting through the territory east of the Dnieper (which will give enough warning time for the Ukrainians to mount a stronger defense of the capital, or attacking down from Belarus which is a fairly forested region and harder to supply so they are at greater risk of being cut off. Plus, while Belarus are happy to join in the war games and such, I am not sure that they want to be an actual participant in the war. Ukranian armed forces would never dream of counter attacking into Russian territory, but they might into Belarus.
    3. Trying to take everywhere East of the Dnieper and divide the country - this would likely lead to a protracted insurgency and again, as above, almost guarantee that West Ukraine is lost forever to Russian influence and create an Iron Curtain 2.0 in Europe.
    4. Try to take over the whole country - this would be their next Afghanistan, and I'm not sure they would be able for it. Ever since the Chechan war, the Russian armed forces have been trying to modernise from the old Soviet conscript army to a modern professional one. It is costing the Russian state a lot of money, and Putin is very keen to show off his new toys. But while the Russians have shown themselves very capable in limited conflicts, it is not clear whether the entire Russian army is now a modern, professional army or if the changes are only a limited portion and the rest is still the creaking old red army machine. There is a lot to lose for Putin here. Most Russian tanks are modernised versions of the old Soviet ones (the T14 has yet to come into service) and so are liable to be destroyed by the Javelin missiles (if the Ukranians are able to properly deploy them). Their airforce could completely overwhelm the Ukranians, but air superiority is only of limited value i.e. attacking key targets, and again is susceptible to anti aircraft weapons which the Ukranians have in reasonable numbers. The Russian Navy has been largely neglected and would be a huge expense to modernise, so if they were to attempt a sea landing or other naval operations and it doesn't work out well, it will be embarrassing for Putin. Plus, there is a very strong likelihood that even if they did manage to take the entire country, a strong insurgency will emerge, supported by Western governments.

    So in any of those 4 or similar scenarios, Russia ultimately loses vs where they currently are right now.

    Given that Putin is reasonably smart, my best guess is that he will want to prolong this for as long as possible to try to secure concessions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Sky News reporting just now (but stressing not yet confirmed) that Russian Special Forces and Russian Separatists have now entered Donetsk.

    If confirmed likely to be a huge provocation ploy by Russia? The question then is how much more before the war button is actually pressed?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,307 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    On an immediate basis, claim territory to supply water to the Crimean peninsula. On a medium to longer term, prolonged instability hurts Ukraine economically. Drives away investors and prevents them from pursuing EU membership and the like.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,106 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    The truth is that nobody really knows. Only Putin knows what his intentions are and even they may be subject to events. He may have had a range of options from the outset. These would have ranged in severity from:

    1. Kick up a fuss with no intention of attacking in order to force concessions from the West such as reducing/removing sanctions on Russia and ensuring that Ukraine never accepts NATO
    2. Send troops into Donetsk and Luhansk in order to push forward the area of control so that both provinces are entirely controlled by Russia. This would include the strategic port of Mariupol.
    3. Same as above except seize the entire Baltic sea coastline all the way to Crimea
    4. Seize everywhere west of the river Dniepr - roughly 50% of the country
    5. Seize the entire country

    Right now it seems that things are going to move beyond #1. Perhaps he isn't even considering #4 or #5 due to the difficulties of controlling such a large area. Nobody knows for sure.

    As to the why of it, again we have to look at Putin. I think there are 2 main reasons for this:

    1. A genuine, deep seated, grievance about the collapse of the Soviet Union and it's standing in the world
    2. The fear of another former soviet republic moving away from the Russian sphere of influence

    If Putin can take action now that manages to make Russian look strong and hobbles any efforts by Ukraine to move closer to the EU and specifically NATO then that seems to be an action that he's willing to take.

    An interesting problem arises here though. Every time Russia attacks Ukraine or cleaves off more of its territory for itself it not only concentrates the ethnic Ukrainian population in the remainder of the country but it also turns them increasingly against Russia. Before 2014 only 15% of Ukrainians wanted to join NATO. Now that figure is up around 50%. If the Russian's manage to depose the current Ukrainian president in any free and fair election he would likely be replaced by a Ukrainian nationalist. The only way to prevent that is to have a permanent occupying force in the country. That opens that force up to guerilla attacks from the local population. This was the exact problem that Russia faced in Chechnya but Chechnya is a tiny republic. Ukraine is 40 times larger with about 40 times the population. I cannot see how Russia could maintain control of large sections of Ukraine in the long run without incurring large and continuous losses of life amongst their ranks.

    That means that I think the most likely scenario is for the Russians to only seize territory with large numbers of Russians. They can then leave the threat of further encroachments hanging over the rest of the country in perpetuity. Basically just an extension of the status quo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    Thanks for your detailed answers.

    I largely agree with your assessment that occupying the whole country long-term would be impossible. I'm dubious about toppling the government also because the government could just retreat to the far west and face Russia with the first scenario again. I'm guessing they are hoping to somehow force the government into accepting autonomy for Donetsk and Luhansk but don't know how they'll manage that.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,304 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    I think the problem with holding onto Ukraine is ironically what protects it the most. Russia can easily overwhelm and take over Ukraine; they can infiltrate easily etc. The problem, and Putin is well aware of it, is holding on to Ukraine. It lacks interesting resources (bread basket is not that critical these days), they need someone to take over locally and be able to hold on to it without being a big money drain (i.e. constant Russian occupation force is not really doable due to size, cost etc.) and honestly I don't see any suitable candidate. Which leads to the final issue; once the dictator of choice gets kicked out (since the people are now used to living in a free nation) the "new Ukraine" will be even more hostile to Russia than before and even more desperate to join Nato. This means Russia will be in even a worse position than now.

    Tie that in with sanctions forcing them to export raw material to China only (and China will happily oblige) will sink the Russian economy between paying for the occupation, supporting their pet dictator and the Russian oligarks running into problems in the west. Putin is not stupid; he knows all of this and Russians in general still remember Afghanistan and Chechnya and those quagmires which would not go down well domestically beyond the initial year or so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,003 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think Putin will lose more than he will gain out of this.

    But then look at his history, he didn't from the KGB to premier of Russia by being reasonable or fair.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi made a jittery statement about Ukraine's sovereignty needing to be respected and the Minsk Agreement being the only show in town

    It's long been a source of contention with China watchers over the years how far exactly Beijing would ultimately go to stand beside Russia in a severe crisis. The preponderance of opinion has always been that Beijing would lose its nerve and pull back to self-interest and risk aversion. They don't want a geopolitical sh*tstorm that would draw obvious parallels with Taiwan and their designs on the island. A coherent security alliance involving NATO, India, Japan, South Korea, Australia all moving in lockstep to limit Chinese moves on Taiwan would inevitably result. Invading Ukraine is a risk quantum too large for China to really get into bed with Putin on Ukraine.

    It's a fair-weather friendship



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