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Housing Madness

13468914

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ....we actually need to build in excess of 30k units a year for the foreseeable, in order to keep up with demand, and theres nothing simply about the economics of our property markets, for example pricing varies for various different reasons, and cannot be simplified down to just supply and demand, the supply and demand of economics are also not laws, compared to the laws of science etc. the money supply plays a significant part in the price of property, we found this out the hard way in the previous boom, by allowing the private sector money supply, i.e. the credit supply, run riot, now we have both the public and private sector money supplies, playing a critical role in pushing up prices, amongst other things, inflation etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭vriesmays




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭onedmc


    We need a proper property tax. Owner-occupier should then only pay 50%. This would balance the power of the owner over corporates and those that own multiple properties.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's the middle class who are fuc!!!d now ..the working class always had a tough time....poverty is seeping through the classes very quickly...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,428 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    The middle class are workers as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Poor mouth rhetoric landlords spout. Renting a home/flat was considerably reasonably priced during the Celtic tiger growth period. Landlords had the same expenses to cover.

    Is there substantial information costs are higher for them? The building end of the day does not belong to the renter will never profit from the stay, yet landlords demand the renter to cover the costs of monthly mortgage payments and other expenses.. The reality is landlords will find a long list of excuses as to why high rents should stay.

    This is the mindset . “Personal funds will have to be used to cover all the costs” Again may be the way things are but the home does not belong to the renter. I just think something wrong with how it all works when someone else is paying another person's mortgage off and see no return nothing from it the end.  Simple view it may be. How I see it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Difference Ray. Transfer of goods deal with a business. You'll hand over cash for a service or a product. Renting a home is not a business. End of the day Someone paying your monthly mortgage payment why is that not sufficient for a landlord? Is that not an advantage a renter willing to do that? Landlords are just happy to be in the mindset of not paying for their home.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Exactly. Landlords want it all that's the issue snow.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    This is a warped view at best. Of course you get a benefit of renting an apartment or a house, you get the use of the property for the period you rent it.

    Follow your logic, why would you ever go on holidays for instance? After all your money is going to be used pay of some companies loans, the mortgage on the property you stay in, the dividends paid to the shareholders etc. Or how about buying a paper, magazine or book? After all the newsagent might use your money to pay off his mortgage or take holiday…

    Nobody goes on holiday, buys a paper or rents a property without receiving something in return and to claim otherwise is utter nonsense. The only way you end up with nothing is if you rented a property and allowed some random individual to stay in it and that would be foolish. You can question whether renting represents value for money etc but not that you get nothing out of the exercise.

    If you want to start questioning anything start by asking yourself why you thing a housing policy based on people taking on huge amounts of debt or relying on social assistance to put a roof over your head is such a great idea? It has not worked in the past, it’s clearly not working now nor has it worked in any other Anglo Sphere country.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭jim-mcdee


    Definitely. Political backlash. That's what we need. What were the government thinking trying to incentivise job growth when there was high unemployment a few years ago? Didn't they see that if there were too many jobs rent would go up? We need a government that focuses on cheaper rent. Clearly the government got it wrong. They should forced builders to build houses at a loss or build and leave empty until someone could afford to buy the house. And then tried to get some more jobs for people. That would be the right way. The government did it wrong way around. Get the SF in they will sort everything out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    You have highlighted the issue Jim “You get the use of the property.” My first position is value for money. Wrote in the second paragraph. Purchases never feel got ripped off. Before going on any holiday, shop around and typically do find great deals at good prices. It is not really an appropriate comparison to compare.

    I have concern (not a renter by the way) I feel their selfishness and greed here. Just an example property owner bank loan is 500 to 600 Euros every month. And, the property owner decides to advertise the house just bought for 1000 Euros a month or more, above the actual contract repayment. The landlord mortgage payment is already getting paid and presumably, little profit thereafter expenses. I don't get it personally why landlords would be leaving the market if someone took over mortgage payments for you? Maybe investors would if they want quick gains. Very profitable in the long run keep renting the house to individuals long term. It's more of a punch had to repay all of it yourself?

    I not arguing landlords do not get something out of it renting a home to a stranger. I figure that’s an issue the government should address from.. A lot of people work 9/5 jobs and have other bills, and rents are just too high for people. I would agree taking on huge debt is a problem. I think social assistance is more about people not having the income to get a loan for a home and they need help.. That's another debate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    No one works for free. But sadly a large majority in this country have copped on that if you don't work at all and the more needy and disadvantaged you portray yourself gives you a massive advantage of being housed in this country. Fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Warped sense of entitlement. Landlords love the investment of a second home but hate having to pay anything back. It's the landlord's asset is not the renter's. Should be happy there is a stream of cash coming in to help you pay off most of those things you listed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    According to what said, homes rented before getting sold. They decided to sell up when prices are high. Covid probably had a knock-on effect that some people lost work, not afford rents and landlords got out. The landlord maybe an old pensioner and decided the time was right to retire and the loan was mostly paid back to the bank. Plenty of factors. Investor's goal is profit, and see an knock-on effect coming with their own pocket, they get out. That's a problem itself that renting is viewed in that way. How much can I squeeze out of a stranger. not enough there out. Others stick around because the renters helping them pay off their mortage. Unfortunately the profiteers jumping ship will cause a problem like we see now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,798 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    My two cents is that people in general would like the opportunity to buy a house in advance of a foreign investment fund coming in, buying the whole estate and renting it to them instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    The government has to face supply chain issues , inflation, everything is getting more expensive, shortage of experienced building workers. Many builders went home to Poland and EU countrys 2 years ago. will they come back. Who knows. Landlords can only claim the interest on a mortgage against revenue as a tax credit The days when local authority councils could build 1000s of houses are gone. The tax system here is not encouraging small landlords with one or 2 units



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    All these vacant houses are vacant or a reason. With rent so incredibly high wouldn't it make natural sence to forbthe owners to get them rented? More housing stock would reduce the level of rent people pay.


    The problem goes back to my initial point. The cost of taking a vacant house from its current position and getting it market ready for sale or rent is simply too high

    Duncan Stewart was on his TV show promoting said idea standing outside a derelict building absolutely waffling on about how it's cheaper to get these ready for market than new builds, which is nothing more than waffle. In many cases it would cost the same, if not even more if the property are a very old with stone walls.

    Some of the suggestions of selling these to the state doesn't solve the problem. Going full Richard boyd barrett and expecting the state to be able to afford to supply a house to everyone isn't the answer either.

    The housing crisis is like a plane crash, its not one single problems that's causing it, nor is it one single fix that will resolve it. The end result needed obviously is more units, but no single stroke of a pen will get is there.

    Planning will be involved, the city needs more high density multi occupancy units that will have young single people, young couples, and elderly that want to downsize suitable accommodation where they're not occupying houses more suitable for families. There is far too much NIMBYism in the planning process and nothing ever gets accomplished


    The private sector builds houses, they're not doing so, we need to get the private sector building again, but by doing so, being careful we don't get into a Priory Hall situation either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BattleCorp1



    Tell me, why do you think it's a landlord's job to provide renters with cheap accommodation?

    After all, it's the landlord who has fronted the cash to buy/build the building. It's the landlord who has to pay for the maintenance. It's the landlord who has to insure the building. It's the landlord who has to make up any shortfall if money coming in is less than money going out. It's the landlord who has to shoulder the cost of bad tennants who won't pay/damage the property. It's the landlord who can't get bad tennants out of the building for two or three years should the tennant act the bo11ix. It's the landlord who has to pay the mortgage if the tennant stops paying.

    You've a very negative view of landlords. Agreed, there are some greedy landlords but it's not the land of milk and honey. It's not worth it for many smalltime landlords. If there was such good money in it, you would have people fighting hand over fist to get into the rental market, and not exiting it as is now happening.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BattleCorp1


    They should forced builders to build houses at a loss or build and leave empty until someone could afford to buy the house.

    The most stupid statement I've seen on boards in a long time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,428 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I think jim-mcdee was being ironic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    Jim is a bit of a boy o



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Most vacant houses would cost as much as a new build to get up to today’s standards, if you could find the tradespeople. In principle, a good idea, but may not be financially viable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,190 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Never in the history of the state have we voted out fffg , it’s time to embrace the unknown and uncertain and give others a shot



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,428 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I have no idea what condition they are in, and I don't know how anyone else would know that for 180,000 vacant dwellings. If even 10% of them were in good condition, it would be worthwhile looking to get them occupied, while waiting for the new builds.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BattleCorp1


    Oops. Did I just have a Sheldon Cooper moment and not recognise sarcasm? ☺️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Renting a property is a service. The renter does not have to buy appliances nor maintain the property. Renting is a business. No tenant has ever paid any mortgage for a landlord. I am paying for my home and took a financial risk to invest in order to provide a service for others. To answer another question you posed about increased costs, yes costs have increased since celtic tiger years to rent a property and they continue to rise like everyone else is experiencing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    The OP is quite right in their observations. The state is a big player in funding the construction of new A rated homes, they have to be since the state is hidebound by it's own increasing burden of building regulations.

    And these houses are perversely needed for those who are on low or no incomes. Whilst those of similar age working their asses off, are forced into the remnants of old housing stock that the state deems unfit.

    If it weren't so utterly unfair, it's a source of great amusement. How on earth have FF/FG/Lab/Greens/PDs/INDs and anyone else who has been in government over the past three decades, managed to f**k up so badly?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    The issues around retro fitting old housing stock and the current government SEAI schemes are going to increasingly come under a big spotlight. The criteria needed to qualify for the grants for the larger retrofits is beyond many properties, never mind the pockets of their owners.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You are missing a key peice of information here. The government do not own the property private buyers are buying. They don't deem the unfit and still have many on their books which they are retro fitting for the tenants. The properties they do own are built to a modern standard so of course they will be better than properties built 70-50 years ago.

    As for the grant scheme you deem only suitable for the rich really aren't. It is very simple a low interest loan that will cost little more than the fuel saving so it doesn't cost much. Maybe €5 extra a month. Most people could afford that plus as time moves on that extra will likely reverse and it will be cheaper than it would of cost to heat your home with the fuel costs going up. One of the ways wealthy people increase their wealth is by spending money for long term savings. The government is giving the public this option which is a good thing



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,700 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    100 per cent. New build 2 bed houses in Maynooth are going up for close to 400K. For a 2 bed!!!!! Like WTF. The 3beds are up for 430k. And they are what I'd describe as strange builds. Have a look at the them the estate is called Mullen Park. Some of the houses are the width of a room (4.5 meters). Mad stuff.


    They are only aimed at one type of buyer and it's not the nurse and guard.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,706 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    We need to start building large apartments like yesterday, but the toxic politics and planning pox mean this is stiffled at every stage.

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,190 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'd love a nice new 2 bed. In Dublin though.......



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,147 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    Strange builds indeed.

    Daycent gardens though. Plenty of room for a men's shed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,700 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    I've nothing against 2 beds with gardens. I think they could suit a lot of people. I do have a huge issue with 400k though. Obviously aimed at the big pension investment funds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    No, I'm not missing much information - much of this older housing stock in small estates was owned by local authorities/ the state. It was built for those on lower incomes, the same people being housed now in modern constructions. The state is the author of this situation by selling these old properties on for all the various reasons we know about, including maintenance.

    As regards retrofitting, the basics of the SEAI scheme "Many homes in Ireland are on the lower end of the A to G Building Energy Rating scale. They perform poorly in comparison to homes built to current building standards. By law, all homes undergoing major renovations must be built to a minimum B2 energy rating. If you would like to get your home to a minimum B2 building energy rating (BER), then the first place to start is with the building fabric. You want to reduce heat loss, keeping it in the home for longer."

    B2 is the minimum BER rating you have to achieve, you stump your money up and if it doesn't reach that, well bye bye. An issue with many older buildings with stone or mass concrete walls and so on is how to achieve B2 without compromising the building structure. Initial thoughts on this that I've read and I have an interest as living in such a building, is that it's very difficult to achieve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I don't if you are being serious but some others certainly think they are odd. To me they aren't and I don't know what is meant to be strange about them. I so know if they were in Dublin they would cost substantially more to build, buy land and sell.

    I am actually doing up my own home at the moment and preparing for it to be split in the future as part of the alterations. May downsize because we don't really need the room we have which is a luxury I know most people don't have. They layout is a bit odd so hence the renovations. When we bought the place we re plumbed, re wired added external insulation and it is still not A rated so more expensive to heat compared to those new builds. Technically it is a 3 bed but has 3 receptions and a huge kitchen diner easy to make into two 2 beds and it close to a hospital.

    I could just sell it but by adding value and accommodation I will be helping the current housing crisis. People here are saying it isn't work nor that landlords add value. The house my parents stopped falling down and fixed up to rent apparently did nothing and did not do anything for 40 years of renting. The rental properties have triple glazing and external insulation which is better than my own home.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Interesting article here on how a young couple could have a home of their own. https://www.thesun.ie/money/8388935/first-home-wigan-young-sacrifice/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,147 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    Well the fact that the door is on the side of the house is a bit odd. They look lovely inside though. I wouldn't mind living there but I'd agree with gusser that they're strange builds.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,453 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    People are always complaining about places being all the same and you can't handle a door at the side? Seriously I don't get the world any more



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,147 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    Aye, the situation with Russia and Ukraine is bad enough, but when you see doors on the sides of houses you know the world is fúcked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    This is the best country in the Western world to be a non-working single mother, and the worst country in the Western World to be a middle class taxpayer. Won't change until we elect a party with actual centre right policies. Until then we get the country we deserve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭arctictree


    I own a small 2 bed house around 20Km from Dublin. It's not derelict but would take about 50K to get it up to HAP standards for rental. Money I dont have. So it sits idle. I'm sure there are many like me.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But it sits idle because you have too much money, no offense.

    You can afford to leave an asset sitting idle. Either the government tax vacant properties at a massive amount or this keeps happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    Why should we have to support those who can’t be arsed getting out bed and on the dole.

    People work hard enough and if they want a second or multiple house they own idle it’s their business.

    This sense of entitlement is giving me a dose of scour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭arctictree


    Sorry, that makes no sense. It sits idle because I can't afford to do it up to HAP standard. Also, there is a planning restriction on it which prevents it from being sold.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    this doesn't make any sense.

    Having vacant properties means people cannot live in them, what does that have to do with people on the dole?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    Its the people on the dole making the most noise. Keep up.



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