How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

Of all things the northern executive is as far from Democracy as you can probably get ….

How many Irish people would regard Seamus Heaney as a foreigner?

Something like one-sixth of Scotch-Irish people are directly descended from Gaels, i.e. O'Hara is a Gaelic name and a Scotch-Irish name.

Meaning that even some of the "settlers" in Ireland were other Irish people.

It’s a good question. Yes I actually can have fairly honest discussions with my local sf councillor who I trust and respect. But he has been on a huge journey like myself. A few Olof the boyos on here would be in a different category

Well that could apply to both traditions on the Island.

There seems to be a reluctance by some more hardline Unionists to accept the fact they were part of an apartheid state for over 50 years and supported a corrupt police force that was the RUC.

Throws around labels himself but can't bear the one applied to him. The same holier than thou stuff belligerent Unionism engages in.

Partitionist is no more offensive than republican or unionist etc as descriptors.

I think there's some confusion going on here between segregation and discrimination.

It's perfectly true that the Republic's education system was, and still is, segregated on denominational lines. It would be completely wrong, though, to suggest that this represented discrimination against the Protestant community — quite the reverse. Protestant schools received (and still receive) on average better funding per capita than Catholic schools. And, even if this were not true, the maintenance of distinct Protestant schools was and still is an important factor in sustaining the Protestant community as a distinctive community, especially in rural areas. It's generally true that religions/ethnic/cultural/social minority communities benefit from having their own social and cultural institutions, and schools are among the most important of these.

Minority communities generally want segregated education. Opposition to segregated education usually comes from members of the majority community, who are indifferent to the eclipse of minority communities or simply haven't thought about the possibility.

I think you'll look in vain for evidence of Protestant communities or community leaders demanding an end to distinctive Protestant schools in the Republic, or indeed to Catholic communities/community leaders making such a demand in NI. In neither place did the minority community experience segregated education as a form of discrimination from which they suffered. They might have complained about funding or other aspects of the management of the system if their schools were treated disadvantageously to the schools of the majority community, but not about the whole idea of having their own schools.

I think it's wrong to say that segregated education was set by by Anglicans and RCs, but not by Presbyterians. Prior to 1831 only Angllican schools received any public funding (and not many of those) and in fact during penal times only Anglican schools could legally operate at all. But that law was not enforced; hedge schools operated openly and were tolerated. There were both Catholic and Nonconforming hedge schools.

When the system of national education was established in 1831, it was put under the control of a board of seven Commissioners, of whom 3 were Anglican, 2 Catholic and 2 Presbyterian. The original idea, as you know, was that children would be taught secular subjects together, while religious instruction would be delivered separately, and at the end of the school day. This proved unpopular with all three groups to the point of unworkability, and the Board pretty soon adopted the segregated system that we know today.

It's quite wrong to think that the Presbyterians played no role in the adoption of segregation. As noted, there were two Presbyterians on the Board that adopted it. More to the point, Presbyterian voices were prominent in objecting to the original unsegregated model. A campaign against the national schools in Down and Antrim saw a number of national schools burned and teachers intimidated. In 1832 the Ulster Synod passed a resolution rejecting the system, and set up a rival system of their own in which the Bible and the Westminster Catechism were prescribed texts for all pupils; by 1839 there were 150 schools in this system, 120 of them in Antrim and Down. (These schools were absorbed into the national system after it was changed to permit denominational patronage and control.)

The key problem was that the (largely English) designers of the system of national education saw religious instruction as something self-contained, that could easily be separated and corralled into a relatively small corner of school life. None of the major religious traditions in Ireland shared this view; they all considered education holistically, as a form of pastoral care systematically shaped by faith, and the national education system pretty well had to adapt itself to this if it was going to achieve widespread acceptance.

I don’t see encompassing the unionist population in a new Ireland as being a problem - We are experts at catering for a belligerent minority that wants all the fiscal benefits of the society without any loyalty to it or compliance with its laws. We would just recognise their special ethnicity in law, listen to the preachy blinkered rambles of its representative group lecturing us on how bad we treat them whilst ignoring their own groups disastrous self-defeating behaviour.

A very good historical perspective. I was referring to the 21st century. Currently afaik there are zero presbyterian schools in NI while there are endless RC schools and a few COI schools. Do you not think it would be better for MD to advise the RCs and COIs throughout Ireland to follow the Presbyterian model of not having church schools, instead of having a scattergun go at the North

The Free Presbyterian Church runs 7 schools.

I am very aware of that, but that is not the Presbyterian Church. You should reflect on why they have schools and their intentions - That will give a rock solid reason for ending church schools. I am also fairly certain they receive no funding from government and therefore its up to them. My issue is with the state funding church schools which is even greater in ROI - Hence MD should take the beam out of his own eye before taking the speck from his brothers.

I also would guess there would be less than a couple of hundred pupils total at all the Free P indoctrination schools

Absolutely I would. Do away with church schools and trendy ‘integrated’ schools and insist everyone goes to state schools irrespective of community background.

Here you go again, trying to pigeonhole posters as being the same as particular political parties. Downcow may be what you deride as a belligerent unionist in one of your other favourite pastimes of labelling the other, but that doesn't mean he holds the same views as either of the main unionist parties.

On the issue of integrated education, you have never told us whether you support the idea that whites in South Africa should be free to choose to send their children to State-funded whites-only schools. It is the same principle as your support for sectarian choice in Northern Ireland.

How about white-only schools in Alabama, do you support the right to choose them?

I doubt you are incorrect. I don’t know any unionist party or politician who supports segregated education based on religion. Some do support it based on an academic test which I also disagree with

you will find that it is the parties you are more aligned to that support segregated education ie SDLP and the shinners