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Sacked doctor sues former employer for refusing to call trans-woman "she"

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  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭dePeatrick


    So there is little or no criteria for getting a gender certificate?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭apache




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,926 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Seems like a loaded question tbh, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, and given on the basis that I take your claim that you’re a woman at face value even though I know nothing about you, I’d extend that same courtesy to Lia Thomas.

    Does considering Lia Thomas a woman have any impact on other women, no, it doesn’t, not even for example those women Lia is beating at the Ivy League swim championships.

    By that low standard anyone really could legitimately claim that any woman beating other women should be excluded from competition, because that happens already too - sore losers will always find some way to claim the winners have an advantage. That’s been part and parcel of sports since women weren’t even considered, let alone later excluded, from participation in activities which were considered solely the pursuit of men.



    From what you’re saying, they appear to be men claiming to be women, that’s not the same thing as anyone who believes themselves to be a woman, claiming to be a woman.

    Certainly I can understand the consequences for women they rape and assault in prison, and I’m absolutely certain that kind of behaviour is criminal already, and the consequences of rapists anywhere is very real.

    What you appear to be more concerned with however, is attempting to try and make a connection between your claims, and offering the criminal behaviour of other people as a justification for rescinding laws which recognise the right of people to be protected from unlawful discrimination.

    You probably don’t see the contradiction, but thankfully for everyone in Irish society at least, I don’t see your ideas becoming a reality any time soon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Yes.

    Because in Ireland we chose an easier human rights based approach that doesnt pathologise trans people. We've had this system almost 7 years and no issues. It goes to show all the outrage and hysteria in the UK is pointless.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,581 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    People can call themselves whatever they want but they should have no right to force others to do so when they don't agree with it.

    If someone wasn't born with a womb and vagina then they will never really be a woman no matter what surgery they have, many people hold this view so its wrong to try and make them say something they don't believe is true.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I read that some trans prisoners are being kept in cells for 23 hours a day. That’s not good.

    “Criminal defence lawyer Robert Purcell says that the Gender Recognition Act 2015 has placed the State in an impossible position with regard to transgender prisoners.”



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But either you think experience and personality are an integral part of being a woman or they are not

    But I have already stated that those experiences are integral part of being a woman or a man. I have not said a single thing about Chromosomes. I'm beginning to wonder have you bothered to read my posts before quoting me.

    There are more scientific reasons involved in the makeup of a woman than chromosomes. The simple biological differences between a man and a woman are obvious whether that's bone density, physical strength, or simply the sexual organs themselves. There are no surgical or hormonal treatments existing which are capable of turning a man into a woman from a biological pov. The science is there to make a Trans person into something different than a male or female, but not to exchange their sex to make them the same.

    Now, I've given you plenty to argue over. No need to attribute arguments to me that I haven't made.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Why is that a point? Why would it matter that it is easy to get?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭apache


    It matters because judges are sending male prisoners to female prisons. It shouldn"t be happening.

    It's a legal minefield.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭dePeatrick


    Seems silly to me, as another poster said men who identify as female are being sent to womens prisons! Madness…



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And what does that have to do with how easy it is to get the certificate



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Not really. Theres a few trans women in womens prisons. Their risk profile has been assessed and if the risk is very high they are actually kept in solitary confinement. No big deal.

    As usual though once again it needs to be pointed out that noone ever gives a sh!t about womens safety in prisons until trans women get discussed. Noone ever gives a sh!t that cis women prisoners could be attacked by their cis cellmates or indeed by cis male staff. This is just using cis women prisoners safety as a weapon against trans women without actually giving a crap whatsoever about the cis women prisoners or their safety.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,640 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    @[Deleted User] do not post in this thread again



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    A little hypocritical klaz considering you say:

    You seem to think it must be one or the other... that I have to focus entirely on the physical/biological aspect of science and ignore the personality and psychological development of people.

    I never made that argument, nor do I believe it. I think it's perfectly valid to explore personality or experience based aspects of being a woman.

    So why are you upset that someone assumed something about your opinions based on an argument you made but are perfectly happen to assume something about my opinions based on arguments I made?

    Back to the point I was making. You claim that TRAs definitions are not scientific while basically throwing In a bunch of various factors that go into the "makeup" of a woman. Even if we ignore the obviously unscientific notions of experience and personality differences (what exactly are they? Are girls made of sugar and spice and all things nice?), You mention other biological factors.

    To be scientific, you would have to explain how these factors impact on being a woman. Let's take one example, why is bone density a factor in being a woman? Does having denser bones than average women make someone with XX chromosomes less of a woman?

    But just throwing a bunch of biological terms randomly into a conversation is not scientific and it a little rich to criticise TRAs as being unscientific.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭AllForIt



    Trans is a mental condition, not an illness

    Discuss



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Seems to me that there can be a lot of motivation for male criminals to pretend to be trans in order for themselves to be safer and/or to be in a position to harass women.

    If a high profile criminal tried such a thing then it would really shine a light on this nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's meaningless. Good mental health and bad mental health are both "mental conditions". A trans identity is a mental condition in the sense that any gender identity is a "mental condition". The only way to have no "mental condition" is to be dead, or at least brain-dead. If you have a mind, your mind must be in some condition.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,554 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Its an incongruence, or a disordered state, (but not a 'disorder', because of the stigma associated with that word)



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    There is a condition known as gender dysphoria, which is the discomfort or distress that can occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or their sex-related physical characteristics (or both). But a couple of points to note:

    1. It's not the mismatch between identity/assignment/physical characteristics that is the dysphoria; it's the distress. If somebody is not distressed, then they don't have gender dysphoria.
    2. The distress need not be caused by the mismatch; it may be caused by how people react to the mismatch. If you are distressed because people refuse to accept your gender identity (because they look at your physical characteristics and/or your birth assignment and prioritise those over your gender identity) then you have G.D., but the proximate cause of it is the treatment other people accord you.
    3. Even if this is not the case, if your distress is the result of your own reaction to the mismatch and you are distressed independently of how other people treat you (and, to be clear, this is very common; i am not saying that gender dysphoria is usually or normally caused by other people's reactions) identifying your condition as gender dysphoria does not imply that your gender identity is "wrong" and your assignment/ physical characteristic are "right". Nor does it imply the opposite. It observes that they are mismatched, but it adopts no position on the validity or invalidity of any of them.




  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    If you're trying to nicely say that trans people are mental then no.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Not really. If a criminal is a threat to other inmates thats risk assessed. All these "what if someone pretends" never happen in real life just in peoples imagination.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Would it be appropriate to call a trans woman ma'am?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A little hypocritical klaz considering you say:

    Are you even capable of engaging in a discussion without twisting what is stated? I'm serious. Last three posts of your to mine, are each a twist of was stated. Whether it's seeking to argue a statement that I didn't make or avoiding your own misrepresentation when called on it. For example:

    Back to the point I was making. You claim that TRAs definitions are not scientific

    Nope. I never said that. I said that there is no science to back up the claim that a Trans person can transition/change their sex to be the same as their opposite sex. A man, with the technology or knowledge that exists today, cannot change into a woman, either physically or mentally. They can change from being a man to something else, but not be the same as a woman.

    Now.. I'm going to ignore you because you refuse to deal with the posts as stated and seek to twist everything. Absolutely no value in engaging any kind of discussion with someone who feels the need to be repeatedly that dishonest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    In any context in which it would be appropriate to call a cis woman ma'am, yes.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "All these "what if someone pretends" never happen in real life, just in people's imagination".

    Much like the premise that you are a different biological sex.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    I seen a video where the trans woman insisted to be called ma'am.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus




This discussion has been closed.
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