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Sacked doctor sues former employer for refusing to call trans-woman "she"

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Thanks for answering my questions OEJ.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on Lia Thomas. Personally, I care that a former male swimmer has declared themselves to be a woman and is now winning elite women's events, by large enough margins to make the 'competition' a farce. This policy is effectively signposting the end for sports in which 'cis' (or biological) women can win. You feel that is a price worth paying, personally I don't.

    On prisons, you said:

    "From what you’re saying, they appear to be men claiming to be women, that’s not the same thing as anyone who believes themselves to be a woman, claiming to be a woman."

    On what basis can I or anyone else determine the difference between "men claiming to be women" and "anyone who believes themselves to be a woman"? The answer is we can't, because we are being asked to evaluate subjective feelings inside someone's head. There is no test in objective reality. Personally, I would not allow any biological male into a women's prison, because I prioritise women's safety over men's feelings.

    You claim I am interested in "rescinding laws which recognise the right of people to be protected from unlawful discrimination."

    Let me reassure you that this is not the case. I don't want trans people to be discriminated against, I want them to have the same rights as everyone else. What I don't believe is that anyone has the right to be treated for all purposes as the opposite sex, particularly when that comes into conflict with the safety, dignity and privacy of women.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Once again the mask slips on how you negatively view trans people.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It all felt everso straightforward when I grew up.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭Gentlemanne


    It's not pointless - it makes their newspapers lots of money.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They used to say being gay was a mental illness and it could be cured. Some still believe that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Indeed. And some people here claim they are respectful of trans while labelling them all as unstable.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭MarkEadie


    Agreed, it is surprising when some gay posters are so anti trans. I think klaz has said he is gay and is anti trans. You would think that being discriminated against for being gay would have given some understanding. I would have thought being gay would exclude you from the Gemma O Doherty fans on here since she has said that gay people can't be happy and stuff like that but it's good to see them accept a gay poster and you could extrapolate from that that they are all pro gay marriage so perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh on them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,925 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I understand where you’re coming from in relation to Lia Thomas, but you’re adding criteria now that weren’t in your original question. I would extend the same courtesy to Lia Thomas as I extend to you on the basis that that’s how I know you would prefer to be addressed. You could be a champion national hunt jockey for all I care, and I’d still address you however you prefer to be addressed, in the same way as I would Lia Thomas. Might be some initial confusion if I were ever to meet Rachel Blackmore though -

    "I don't feel male or female right now. I don't even feel human," 31-year-old Blackmore told ITV.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/horse-racing/56701659


    Lia Thomas’ win was quickly superseded by another swimmer who is also transgender, and there was a thread started on it here, but I figured that’s just as bad an argument as the initial argument that males have an advantage in women’s sports -

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna11622


    Personally, I detest the sort of witch-hunt public shaming and “concerned citizen” nonsense that social media encourages tbh. It’s a terrible argument in any case because by sheer virtue of their numbers participating in sports - there are more men than women participating in sports. This is likely to always be the case, no matter what policies are introduced or jigged around or anything else. I don’t agree that it’s signposting the end of women’s sports they can win, any more than when women were permitted to participate in sports, it signposted the end of sports men could win. As the defense attorney in the Connecticut case put it (before the case was dismissed and the plaintiffs were unable to find any other examples) -

    Defense attorney Joshua Block argued the CIAC policy doesn’t deny any girl a meaningful opportunity to participate in sports, but that overturning it would violate the Title IX rights of transgender girls.

    “No court, no agency has ever defined a participation opportunity as winning an equal number of trophies,” he argued.

    https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/7378186002


    On the question of evaluating anything inside anyones head, we do it all the time, hell you even made a good stab at evaluating what’s in my head that you think I do or don’t care about or should care about on the basis that I’m a man.

    One thing that does concern me is that were I ever to visit America, I probably wouldn’t make it out of JFK Airport alive, or knowing my luck - someone else wouldn’t on the basis that I’d probably use the wrong bathroom and some sweet old dear with notions of keeping America’s women safe, would take a shot at me with a gun, miss by a country mile, killing someone else in the attempt.

    ”Terribly sorry, I was aiming for the pervert!”


    On the question of prisons, well, you’ll have your work cut out intending to get men out of womens prisons seeing as the majority of prison officers in womens prisons are men. It would be unreasonable to suggest that they don’t prioritise the safety of the inmates, it’s part of their job. In saying that, I do recognise, and I agree with Dicky Roche, assistant Governor of Limerick prison -

    It is an undisputed observation that female experiences of the prison service contrast starkly with its male counterpart. The structure of the prison is decidedly male-centric, “built by men, for men”, in the words of Dr Richard Roche, assistant governor of Limerick prison.

    https://galwaypulse.com/2020/04/22/a-reflection-on-womens-prisons-in-ireland/amp/


    Prisons were never built with the intention of accommodating women. I’m not even going to get into the statistics with you on the level of inmate-perpetrated violence in women’s prisons, suffice to say the women perpetrate violence against women in womens prisons at greater rates than men perpetrate violence against men. If anyone were to take your argument seriously, then it could easily be argued that men and women should be housed together on the basis of their victims sex - if their victims are girls, put the perpetrator in the male estate. If their victims are boys, put the perpetrators in the female estate. I’m glad I’m not on the board of the Irish Prison Service that has to sort that mess out.

    Did you ever follow up on what happened to the victims of Karen White when they were released from prison? One of them at least, has decided that she will become a lawyer -

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9819631/amp/I-sexually-assaulted-womens-prison-fellow-inmate-male-genitalia.html


    Good luck to her with Julie Bindel as her mentor - thoroughly unpleasant individual, but I agree with her viewpoints on a few different issues all the same. It’s never necessary to throw the baby out with the bath water.

    As for being under the impression that the gender recognition act means that for all purposes that anyone is treated as the opposite sex, well yeah, that’s more or less the wording of it alright, but then depending upon the circumstances there are exemptions in equality legislation which may apply, particularly in relation to as you suggest women’s safety and privacy and so on -

    The Equal Status Acts allow people to be treated differently on specific grounds:

    Gender 

    The Acts allow people to be treated differently on ground of gender in relation to:

    • Cosmetic Services, covering cosmetic, aesthetic or similar services which involve physical contact (e.g. hairdressing);
    • Privacy/Embarrassment, where embarrassment or breach of privacy could reasonably be expected to happen on account of the presence of a person of another gender.


    Gender, age, disability and/or race/nationality 

    The Acts allow people to be treated differently on the grounds of age, disability, and/or race/nationality in relation to:

    • Sporting events, where the Acts allow people to be treated differently on the basis of their gender, age, disability or nationality in relation to providing or organising sporting facilities or events but only if the differences are reasonably necessary and are relevant;
    • Drama and Entertainment, where the Acts allow people to be treated differently on the gender, age, disability or race ground in connection with a dramatic performance or other entertainment but only if the differences are reasonably required for reasons of authenticity, aesthetics, tradition or custom.

    Gender 

    Single sex schools are allowed. Primary and secondary schools may be boys only or girls only.


    Aaaanyway that’s just a small sample of exemptions, more here -

    https://www.ihrec.ie/guides-and-tools/human-rights-and-equality-in-the-provision-of-good-and-services/what-does-the-law-say/exceptions/



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's a very verbose 'answer' OEJ. Almost as if you are hoping to obfuscate and skirt around the issue.

    Let's keep it real simple, do you think Lia Thomas should compete in swimming as a woman, yes or no?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Homosexuality... the hint is in the name. Sexuality. There is a huge gap between the issues of being gay, and those issues relating to being Trans.

    Never understood the desire to link them, except for the possible credibility that Trans might receive from the association.

    Oh, and I'm not anti-trans. What people do to themselves is no concern of mine, nor do I believe in restricting adults from choosing to be Trans. It's when Trans people and their advocates expect others to adjust to their reality, that I have issues. Just as I have issues with extending Trans treatments or ideology to children...none of which was ever part of homosexuality, btw. Oh, there were fears about Gay people with regards to children but they never amounted to anything beyond bigotry. Whereas there have been many examples of Trans people encouraging children to accept Trans beliefs, even to the point of campaigning for trans treatment of children.

    So.. no. I'm not anti-Trans, nor do I believe that homosexuality and the problems gay people faced, are even remotely similar to that of Trans people.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Imagine saying trans is fine, I'm all for trans people doing whatever they believe, but not actually giving them the same rights as everyone else in society 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,925 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Yes? I thought that much at least was obvious given I support the NCCA policy of non-discrimination against people who are transgender. I got it from your previous post already that if you personally had the authority, you wouldn’t let them compete with women. I didn’t want to be incredibly rude and point out the obvious flaw in your thought processes but, you’re a woman, and because you’re a woman, you’re unlikely to ever be in a position of authority in any sport, let alone have your opinion taken seriously.

    Admittedly like this one, ‘twas a verbose response to the many, many issues you raised in your previous post, but if I hadn’t addressed them, then at least you could fairly accuse me of obfuscating and skirting around the many, many issues you raised in your previous post.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Imagine saying with a straight face you are not anti trans while labelling all trans people as unstable.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭apache


    It's in the DSM - 5 along with personality disorders.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'm not seeing the problem here. If she wants to be called that, call her that, same as you would with a cis woman. This isn't hard to grasp.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    I've got to laugh, I really do..


    "I'm not anti trans, I just like to perpetuate myths and stereotypes based on little more than heresay and gossip"



  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭MarkEadie


    "I'm not anti trans but I can see why some people are. Here are all of their reasons for being anti trans, none of which apply to me"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm not a woman, why do you assume I am?

    So you are in favour of any male person who believes they are a woman competing in women's sport. If this policy was adopted across the board it would self-evidently end meaningful competition for biological women.

    In a weird way I hope it happens. It would only take one Wimbledon "ladies" final between two trans women to make the entire world realise that the emperor is naked.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    haha... a reasonable understanding of anti-trans would accept the points I made were not anti-trans.

    You're wanting zero criticism, and no attitudes that don't completely accept your advocated agenda.

    Absent attitudes like that Trans issues would likely receive more approval by people. The sad thing is that your condemnation of others makes the overall situation awkward to resolve.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Btw this:

    "I got it from your previous post already that if you personally had the authority, you wouldn’t let them compete with women. I didn’t want to be incredibly rude and point out the obvious flaw in your thought processes but, you’re a woman, and because you’re a woman, you’re unlikely to ever be in a position of authority in any sport, let alone have your opinion taken seriously."

    It isn't a flaw in my thought process, no more than the fact I will be never be Taoiseach implies that I can't have an opinion on Irish politics.

    Not is it accurate.

    Nor is it relevant.

    You seem to keep attempting to use pointless, irrelevant 'jokey' digressions to avoid thinking clearly about the matter at hand.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Are there any limits to this approach? Are there situations where calling someone whatever they want to be called is not appropriate?



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Of course there are limits. But I don't see that any reasonable limit is infringed here.

    What does it cost you to call her ma'am? What injury do you suffer? How are you disadvantaged? What harm results to you or anyone else?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I am being asked to participate in a lie.

    I may choose to do that if the circumstances merit it, but I won't be compelled.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The actual misgendering going on is by people who would like to insist that you call others by the opposite gender to which they actually are.

    But apparently to some, to misgender someone is to not refer to them as they want to be referred to.

    Do you refer to everyone as they want to be referred to?

    If someone wanted to be referred to as a cat, would you do so?

    If a child wanted to referred to as an adult, would you do so?

    If an adult wanted to be referred to as a child, would you do so?

    A trans woman is not a biological woman.

    To refer to them as such is purely out of politeness and not out of an actual belief that they are an actual biological woman.

    Unless you believe that a trans woman is the same as a biological woman.

    Which in that case, you are simply wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,925 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    From your earlier post of course, where you made your points about me not being a woman being told this, that and the other, and suggesting I check my privilege -



    It turns out you're not a woman either, you're just full of it 😂



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    'To refer to them as such is purely out of politeness and not out of an actual belief that they are an actual biological woman.'

    And what harm is that? If you are polite to most people you meet, why would you not be to a trans man/woman?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This, I assume, is the video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb6OpRfyLFo

    This is an exercise in aggressive, controlling, bullying by a clearly disturbed person. This is what you are enabling when you go along with the lie.

    No thank you.



This discussion has been closed.
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