Why is the Irish Labour party such a failure ?

So Kenny just mistook a anti FF vote for a pro FG one.

Mary Lou is just mistaking an anti FG one for a pro SF one.

We can literally do this for loads of politicians.

Holding steady and playing to the base is about all most minority party leaders can do except for the rare occasion that a chance presents itself like the financial crash or the odd time everyone around you is fking up worse than you.

Quinn and Rabbite won't be seen as great leaders but not failures either. Certainly not in the context of the last 3 leaders.

The Shinners have mercilessly cannibalised the Labour vote in recent elections, by fair means and foul. Likewise other parties of the left are very wary of SF as they've suffered likewise.

Problem for SF is that capturing this portion of the Labour vote only gets you so far. It was the low hanging fruit.

Oh right now I get you. When Labour gain they are still shte and it's thanks to disatisfaction with someone else.

When SF gain its complex 🤣

Also Labour out performed FF in 2011 but it only becomes the "3 party" era once it's SF in the running. Maybe wait till ye are actually in government before you proclaim a new epoch.

No. The 2011 GE was a highly abnormal one because FF had imploded. In effect, the 2.5 party model still applied but FF had become the half party and the two larger parties went into government together. Both FG and Labour gained votes from FF's implosion.

You don't seem to understand the Big Three model. Even the media now refer to the Big Three parties though they, unlike yourself, managed to understand that Labour is not one of the Big Three parties. It was FG, FF and SF who became the Big Three parties in 2016 with Labour having been reduced to just seven seats. It was just another fringe party.

The implosion of Labour in 2016 was not unexpected and some of the "loaned" FF votes drifted back to FF. The Collaboration and Surrender agreement with FG was Martin's "Frankfurt's way" moment. Labour betrayed the most vulnerable of the electorate and it is paying the price for that betrayal.

Regards...jmcc

What Labour vote?

Regards...jmcc

There is no point really arguing with someone who parrots this shte straight off the propaganda divisions Facebook page

Its especially funny from a party in coalition with the DUP.

I never actually believed Labour was one of the big 3 I just think your failure to see the similarities between the Labour protest vote and the SF protest vote is gas.

The "propaganda divisions"? It is simply political history and the history of how votes shifted. It might be unpleasant reading for Labourites but it is what happened.

The "Collaboration and Surrender" agreement does capture the nature of the C&S agreement between FF and FG. I thought it was a rather good description. FF basically sold its soul (again) with the hope that if it could convince the electorate that they were being good boys and girls that the electorate would put them in government next time around but never expected that it would have to go into government with FG.

This gets into the issue of the age demographics of the electorate. It might be a complex argument but I'll try to make it as simple as possible for you. By the 2011 GE, the number of younger voters coming of age since the implosion of the property bubble (2007) was lower than that of the number of younger voters coming of age since 2011. These younger voters are finding it much more difficult to rent properties or buy houses. This issue is also affecting older demographics who see their adult children being unable to rent or buy houses. That's causing a backlash against FF/FG. The 2011 electorate is different from the 2020 electorate. The old FF/FG/Labour certainty of the 2.5 party model is gone and the Labour party has lost its niche. The transfers from FF and FG on which it depended to get candidates elected have also disappeared as the rise of SF has caused FF/FG transfers to stay within FF/FG.

Regards...jmcc

CA is hardly the place for a nuanced discussion.

We have a few die hard LP supporters - not many but they are dedicated.

The "whatabout SF" posse who will always whatabout SF regardless of the topic.

People who never have and never will vote LP as they think anything to the left of centre is Marxist.

And a scattering of opinions with thought and knowledge of Irish political history beyond the last ten years.

Yes, my comment was off the cuff soundbite. That doesn't make it lazy or untrue. It makes it the observation of a person who has lived under many LP in coalition govts including the mess they made the last time that saw them blow the biggest chance they had to make a change.

As a matter of fact I do think the Rainbow Coalition was the best govt this country had - because Democratic Left were there to prevent LP becoming a mudguard for FG.

I don't think so. Labour was a rapidly aging party with a lot of its front bench near or past retirement age. SF seems a much younger party. What may be happening is a generational shift and that works in favour of parties with younger support and younger politicians. (It is also an argument for term limits in the Dail.) Had Labour not been taken over and ruined by the Stickies pension tourists, then there would be a possibility that Labour could have been where SF is now but the age of the Labour TDs was a problem. The reduction in seats solved a lot of those problems for Labour but on its current polling, it will be hard pressed to return 2 TDs.

SF will have to deliver if it gets into government. One of the more sigificant differences between 2020 and 2016 was the IN&M firesale and the sale of Communicorp. The Sindo/Indo and the Communicorp radio stations had always been very anti-SF and quite pro-FG. The propaganda landscape has changed. The reaction to Claire Byrne's anti-SF show was quite interesting in that it shows that the formerly Labour/FF supporting RTE is worried about SF getting into government and doing something popular like cutting or abolishing the TV licence fee. Trust in the mainstream media in Ireland is at an all time low and RTE had to run ads to convince its ever diminishing numbers of viewers that it is trustworthy. The print media has also had major problems in that fewer people now buy or read a daily newspaper. The old party propaganda outlets are increasingly ineffectual. SF, and other parties, will have to deal with that but SF is not in government yet.

Regards...jmcc

Labour's aging front bench was a complete liability. It created a bottleneck where younger Labour politicians could not come to the fore. It was always the same old tired faces. The electorate got rid of them. It was the Stickies pension tourists like Gilmore, Rabbitte, etc that caused a lot of problems for Labour and screwed it up. The way that Labour annointed the useless non-entity Howlin as leader without an election was an example of Labour's decline. The video of him on stage like a tech CEO talking to the nearly empty Labour annual conference was quite funny.

I have no loyalty to any party. I am a floating voter.

Regards...jmcc

The Labour party failed to recognise the improvements in the Irish economy towards the end of the last century and the beginning of this one.

They thought they should be representing the "dispossessed" whereas they should have looked to represent the new working class which was basically all paye workers.

They continued with a Socialist and Internationalist agenda which was not attractive to PAYE workers who aspired to improve their lot.

There is currently no party that represents the workers. That is a huge part of the population without decent representation, especially when you include all public and civil servants. SF and PBP represent the non-workers and FG and FF have focused on appeasing the non-workers and looking after big business.

I understand your point ir rater yiur vuew of your point. However this long discussion from you is off point as the thread is notabout Sinn Féin but Labour?

Also I understand the term "parish pump politics" well, and while I never suggested it could be solved entirelyby bringing candidates from other areas to contest a seat, they might be more focused on national politics if not a local person. Maybe?

It is obviously going to happen if there are parts of the electoral areas underrepresented by a particular party. Most candidates rely on the Cumann in the area to guide them as to te hot topics anyway. That is politics.

Better to have a TD elected representing your area even if they are "parachuted in " as you put it, than any number of local heroes who may never get enough votes to properly represent the constituents.

Why would you infer that from my posts?

He is an entitled plonker who would not be on radar never mind my constitiency.

Maybe pick a less controversial politician or less extreme example or if you want to talk about other parties, there is surely a thread more suitable?

The Labour party are a failure electorally because they never had the political nous to sit and wait outside of government for several electoral cycles when they were in the ascendency. It is quite possible that if labour hadn't gone into government with FG in 2011, we'd already have had a Lab taoiseach.

They have always been quick to put their noses in the ministerial trough at the first opportunity, consequently selling out on the promises and values they campaigned on - often the necessary compromises of coalition and reality.

The same will happen to SF too. It's easy to promise all and sundry when you are not in charge.