Energy infrastructure

cnocbui · 23-02-2022 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118678103#Comment_118678103

I'd build enough nuclear to satisfy peak or greater and sell the excess via an interconnector, the way France does. The way Europe's energy demand is headed, with millions of EV's and the even greater sponge that is heat pump retrofits, I'd say considerable profit could be made. Remember, the costing to our grid just to meet growing data centre demand is estimated a whopping €9b, so imagine how much more it must be for EV's and heating.

We have already established that nuclear is cheaper than offshore wind, so it's an easy choice.

bob mcbob · 23-02-2022 3:27pm

This article is about how nuclear and renewables operate in the real world. It seems that as well as being ridiculously expensive, nuclear is also incredibly inflexible.

Put simply, nuclear power is switching off windfarms in Scotland. Indeed it seems from this study that higher generation of nuclear power is associated with a higher proportion of wind power being switched off (given the comparison between 2017 and 2019 data).

This is an important issue for the future because the proportion of fluctuating renewable energy sources in our grid is growing. This means we will need increasingly flexible systems to balance renewable energy production. Yet the inflexible nature of nuclear power inhibits, and often prevents, efforts to do this. Windfarm compensation payments could be avoided if nuclear power stations were able to adjust their output to help balance renewable energy inputs. However, nuclear power plant are run at full capacity as much as possible and nuclear operators are reluctant, and in many cases technically unable, to ramp up and down to match fluctuations in grid requirements.

So basically nuclear and renewables do not mix. If you are going down the renewable path then building nuclear is both ridiculously expense and pointless due to it's inflexiblity

https://100percentrenewableuk.org/how-nuclear-power-undermines-renewable-energy-the-truth-about-wind-power-compensation-payments

bk · 23-02-2022 7:09pm

"Our current peak demand is 6500mw"

Exactly, a 1,600MW EPR would thus represent half our off-peak capacity and a quarter of peak capacity.

That is far too large for our grid, it would basically be putting all your eggs in one basket. If such a large reactor was to go offline, it would cause a blackout. You would need to run about 4 gas plants all the time as a backup to that single reactor!

There are other issues with such a large reactor, in terms of frequency and voltage management, distribution of electricity from where it is generated, to where it is needed, the need for a minimum of 8 spinning generators near each city, etc.

Basically our grid is built around generators in the 400 to 500MW size. The 500MW interconnector with the UK is our largest current generator and the grid is built to handle that and back that up if it suddenly goes off line. They are currently working towards being able to handle the 700MW Celtic interconnector to France being the biggest generator. You can't just come along and drop a 1400 to 1600MW generator on an independent grid as small as ours.

The only way we could do Nuclear, is if the SMR's in the 400 to 500MW range actually develop and are successful. Technically they could fit on our grid, the current Nuclear technology can't. If you want Nuclear, you will need to wait and see how SMR's develop.

You, really, really should go and read the excellent document that was posted here a few days ago, that explains how our grid is designed and operated. If you take the time to read and understand that, you will see why large generators won't work on our grid.

Capt'n Midnight · 23-02-2022 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677785#Comment_118677785

Storage options

0.012GWh Batteries , ROI total at Dec 2020, 24MWh but only 30 minutes storage *

0.2GWh Batteries ESB 60MW Inchicore and 38MW Aghada but with 2 hours storage (batteries keep getting cheaper)

1.6GWh Turlough Hill 292MW for 5.5 hours

3,000GWh hydrogen storage in Kinsale gas field using existing infrastructure lots of MW for lots and lots of hours. 250,000 times more storage than the first option. 10% of annual demand and 10 times global lithium battery production or 1,875 Turlough Hill's worth of storage.

*Batteries can be used for frequency stability , responding in 0.18 of a second And provide four levels of Operating Reserve from 5 seconds to 20 minutes. Payments drop by 40% after the first 15 seconds so it's all about the horsepower rather the size of the fuel tank.

23-02-2022 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118679868#Comment_118679868

I give it another half a page of posts before we see "omg batteries cost more than nuclear if you want storage for weeks worth of energy".

Capt'n Midnight · 23-02-2022 7:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118678575#Comment_118678575

Peak was 6.9GW

Rolls Royce are dangling the carrot of delivering 7.04GW of modular reactors over 20 years for £32 billion (€38bn)

Or

Spend €2Bn on 4GW of hydrolysers so that 1,8750 hours a year we can use 4GW of surplus wind (7,500GWh) to produce enough hydrogen to get back 3,000GWh of electricity.

Costs for wind not included because we have to have the 80% reduction in emissions by 2030.

Because of the lead time for nuclear - your solution needs a solution.

Markcheese · 23-02-2022 10:53pm

You can't just exclude the cost of wind - and because it's a free market you can't exactly control the price you'll pay for that wind energy either , ( on shore wind electricity could be cheap to produce and expensive to buy ) ..

Also chucking hydrogen down a hole off the coast of cork may be ridiculously expensive - yes it's an old gas field , that's been worked and fracked to the limit over decades , you'd be pumping very expensive - very high pressure ( at cost ) hydrogen into a vast space , that it could leak out of , to then try pump it out again ( using CO² maybe ) and recompress it , to send down pipes ,and through pumping stations not optimised for hydrogen , and to turbines unsuitable for hydrogen anyway. .

Incidentally the aussies are working on directly electrolising electricity to ammonia, already shippable , much lower pressures ,easier ( not easy ) to store , and convertable to hydrogen when needed ..

Or

Markcheese · 23-02-2022 10:55pm

Or convert a lot of our existing gas stations to the Allan cycle , and flog the excess CO² to industry to replace the disruption caused to the fertilizer industry by directly electrolising ammonia with electricity ..

Or maybe not ..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allam_power_cycle#

Capt'n Midnight · 24-02-2022 12:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118681501#Comment_118681501

Hydrogen storage is one option. It's key advantage is months of grid scale storage for relatively little capital investment.

The round trip efficiency is only 40% pumping losses etc. but we are planning on installing another 10GW of wind so should have some to spare.

Hydrogen carriers is the polite term for hydrocarbons that are displaced , because the gas wells aren't empty there's still stuff down there. Would have to start with a mix at the start and move to more hydrogen as the original gas gets used up. It's a fudge. Even if you had to mix it with natural gas from the mains it's lowering emissions.

It's unlikely to leak as it was impervious to gas for millions of years and IIRC it's 1Km below the ocean floor. Pumping stations would be using jet engines.

You can also add up to 20% volume of H2 (7% energy content) to the gas network. Should offset something like 16% of current electrical emissions.

We used to have train loads of ammonia going round the place. You can also dissolve it in water, 33-35% by weight ammonia used to be sold as a household cleaner.

Birdnuts · 24-02-2022 2:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118676785#Comment_118676785

Spote wholesale prices has zero relevance to the rising cost of energy or the costs of supporting wind energy on the grid

Birdnuts · 24-02-2022 2:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677424#Comment_118677424

If your relying on the likes of the Turlough Hill example in terms of storage then you really are clueless as to the needs of a modern Grid and the deficit of power needed to deal with prolonged periods of poor/unsuitable wind conditions.

Birdnuts · 24-02-2022 2:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118677711#Comment_118677711

pity in the real world wind dependent grids show the exact opposite trends when you look at power costs around the EU - I'm not sure what its going to take for the greenwash brigade to wake up to basic facts on this but society at large is only going to indulge this BS for so long

Capt'n Midnight · 24-02-2022 3:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682567#Comment_118682567

How about 2.2GW of interconnectors, all the existing gas generators on the grid and the new ones, waste to energy, biomass, hydro, solar, demand shedding etc. and 1,875 Turlough Hill's worth of storage ?

Banana Republic 1 · 24-02-2022 7:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118678668#Comment_118678668

What does mix is wind and electro sis

Banana Republic 1 · 24-02-2022 7:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118679876#Comment_118679876

There a ball of flames in the sky called the Sun full of hydrogen and only for it we’d all be goosed

Capt'n Midnight · 24-02-2022 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682942#Comment_118682942

Nah, we'd still a clean, reliable 24/7 power source. Geothermal. Just have to use the deep drilling technology of the oil industry.

(There's only enough economically recoverable uranium to supply global energy demand for all uses for 3 years, doubling the cost only adds 1/4 more. And it takes ages to plan, approve and build the plants.)

Markcheese · 24-02-2022 11:47am

Sticking hydrogen Into the current grid isnt great , because of the differences in volume , 20 % by volume will only give you 5 or 6 % by energy .you're watering down the gas .. 40% round trip efficiency isn't including transmission or storage losses ..

Markcheese · 24-02-2022 3:12pm

Anyone got any idea how long it'd take to recommission kinsale or ballycotton as gas Storage .. could be needed quick , I've no idea how long it could take planning wise - but it would be a national emergency if we don't have enough gas going forward ..

cnocbui · 24-02-2022 4:30pm

Thank goodness we can thank the Greens for taking a stance against any prospect of an LNG terminal thus ensuring we avoid the horrendous prospect of energy independence and flexibility of choice.

Just ignore what's going on in Ukraine; not really relevant to energy security.

bk · 24-02-2022 5:00pm

"Thank goodness we can thank the Greens for taking a stance against any prospect of an LNG terminal thus ensuring we avoid the horrendous prospect of energy independence and flexibility of choice"

And what exact good would a LNG terminal be to us, when there is already not enough LNG supplies and ships to supply the existing LNG terminals in the UK and mainland Europe!

"Just ignore what's going on in Ukraine; not really relevant to energy security."

What is happening in Ukraine is terrible and it will absolutely impact the price of gas and thus heating and electricity, but it won't have any impact on the security of supply as we get most of our gas from Corrib and the UK is largely ok too.

Oil used for heating and transport is likely to be more of an issue then Gas.

"Anyone got any idea how long it'd take to recommission kinsale or ballycotton as gas Storage .. could be needed quick , I've no idea how long it could take planning wise - but it would be a national emergency if we don't have enough gas going forward .."

Well storage isn't much use if you don't have anything to put in it.

If we are worried about security of supply, then developing new gas fields near Corrib and Kinsale would give us actual security of supply. The UK is likely to restart fracking.

If it drags on, we could end up keeping Moneypoint for longer then planned.

Of course it would be better if we speed up the move to wind + X (hydrogen, geothermal, etc.). We'd have almost complete energy security then and wouldn't have to rely on the insanity of dictators.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-02-2022 5:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118685499#Comment_118685499

https://www.kinsale-energy.ie/decommissioning-2.html - looks like they've plugged the wells and removed the superstructure off the platforms so would have to drill again. But the pipelines should still be in place.

Well Plugging – there are 7 wells on each platform which were all drilled in the late 1970’s and have been operating continuously since then – their production equipment has been removed and the wellbores have been filled with cement to ensure they are sealed for posterity. Once the platforms are removed in 2022, there will be no trace of these wells remaining on the seabed.

...

The main activity remaining for 2022 will be the final removal of the two platform structures – Alpha and Bravo.

Brochure with diagrams.

https://www.kinsale-energy.ie/gas-storage.html - was in use as storage from 2006 to 2017 and gas production until 2020

in 2006 modifications were made to enable gas taken from the onshore network to be stored in Southwest Kinsale. The storage capacity of the gas store was 230 million cubic meters (1 cubic meter of gas is equivalent to about 10 kW-hrs of energy).

Markcheese · 24-02-2022 5:48pm

I'm aware that gas storage is no use this winter .. and Europe as a whole is going to have to get through this winter .. but spring and summer 2022 aren't far off , and we don't have any gas storage at all except what's in the pipes .. if we can buy Norwegian gas,and corrib gas in summer , then we have some security of supply for next winter -

It's irrelevant anyway - as captain midnight has pointed out that both platforms off cork have sealed their wells , so that's done -

Banana Republic 1 · 24-02-2022 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118686260#Comment_118686260

In case you lose control of that spin machine 43 % of all copper world wide is in construction industry.

60% of titanium worldwide is used in aerospace tech aswell as golf clubs, hips.

Nickel is used in many many industries such as oil refineries. Likewise with aluminium, instead of waving your langer around like a helicopter rotor and declaring yourself a know it all perhaps just inform yourself better

tom1ie · 24-02-2022 11:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682567#Comment_118682567

Hey bird nuts, what’s your thoughts on ESB building the largest synchronous compensator flywheel in the world to reduce the need for gas spinning reserve and allowing high amounts of renewable energy onto the system.

cnocbui · 25-02-2022 2:25am

The Germans getting a masterclass in the benefits and wisdom of energy independence:

"On German TV, German energy minister Habeck says Gazprom has worked towards the current moment by "systematically holding back gas deliveries" to Europe and emptying its reserves in Germany at the start of the winter."

https://twitter.com/philipoltermann/status/1496974642476576770

cnocbui · 25-02-2022 2:30am

A diamond drill bit would go through a cement plug like a hot knife through butter.

25-02-2022 2:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118689148#Comment_118689148

Sounds like a strong justification to get gas out of the picture ASAP for Germany

Birdnuts · 25-02-2022 3:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118688330#Comment_118688330

Ah shure thats great - someone should tell the Germans bout it too. Maybe the geniuses behind our current energy policies will find us a magic money tree too to go along with all this greenwash fantasy....

tom1ie · 25-02-2022 12:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118689214#Comment_118689214

? So what do you think of it?

cnocbui · 25-02-2022 1:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118689178#Comment_118689178

Well obviously restarting their reactors and not closing down any more is the way forward. My bet is the Greens over there will be more concerned about trying to stop that than they are about what is happening in Ukraine or Germany's treacherous position and resonsibility for some of this. I'ts at least a good bit of their money that is being used to fund the attack on Ukraine.

Energy infrastructure

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