Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Yurt2 · 24-02-2022 12:58am

Putin has screwed the pooch. Apart from starting a no-win war with a neighbour, he's stuffed up any relationship with the West and their tight allies for good. The Russia-West relationship won't recover until he's deposed or dies. He better hope his putative relationship with China works out for him. What a boneheaded gamble to take with the fate of your country.

saabsaab · 24-02-2022 1:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118680274#Comment_118680274

The long table is on purpose. It is to show who is boss, who is in control, who intimadates. It unsettles.

Gant21 · 24-02-2022 1:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682432#Comment_118682432

A penis size competition

Manic Moran · 24-02-2022 2:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682124#Comment_118682124

Though not relevant to this scenario, the US Army is plenty well suited to a near-peer conflict in Europe. The only oddity is that the permanently stationed force is light armor and airborne, but there's usually an armored brigade around as well on rotation, and equipment on hand for a second for troops to fly out. The big problem is that most of the heavy stuff is now in the US and would take a fortnight to get to Europe and sort itself out after travel.

Flinty997 · 24-02-2022 2:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682124#Comment_118682124

You'd be wrong. Equipment like the Abrahams, A10 and Apache were specifically designed to fight in Europe against the (massed tank formations) from the east. All their weapons and ammo and data links are standardized across NATO. They were designed and in service long before any of the conflicts in Iraq etc. NATO itself was formed specifically for that purpose, and even declined recently, the US military still has a massive presence across Europe. With the collapse of Soviet Union, the thread declined and thus military spending had decreased across NATO. But since 2014 they've all been increasing it again.

https://theconversation.com/the-us-military-presence-in-europe-has-been-declining-for-30-years-the-current-crisis-in-ukraine-may-reverse-that-trend-175595

Flinty997 · 24-02-2022 2:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682164#Comment_118682164

Ukraine was never likely to be part of NATO, its population was split for years on if it should join or not. There just wasn't enough support internally. It was Russian military intervention of 2014, annexation of Crimea and the start of the Donbass War, that pushed the majority of Ukrainian opinion towards joining NATO. Putin created the problems that he now claims to be solving.

The reality is, after the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia's military strength was a shadow of what it was. It didn't have the military strength to annex its neighbours. Now it does. It still not what it was, but its more than enough to dominate smaller countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/27/world/europe/russia-military-putin-ukraine.html

Putin isn't forced into doing any of this. Its a deliberate long term strategy. But its very vulnerable economically and in technology.

Flinty997 · 24-02-2022 2:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682525#Comment_118682525

The British Army has has pulled out of Rhine also. But on the flip side Nato partners have decent numbers of Tanks in Europe.

Larbre34 · 24-02-2022 2:58am

Argument to admit Ukraine to NATO immediately. Like tonight.

Imagine the upheaval in Moscow.

Flinty997 · 24-02-2022 2:58am

US withdrawal out of Afganistan, and Iraq making a little more sense for people now I'm sure.

Flinty997 · 24-02-2022 3:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682582#Comment_118682582

Be nonsensical and meaningless thing to do. It would just escalate the situation for no reason.

Larbre34 · 24-02-2022 3:15am

I know it won't happen.

I'm just a bit incredulous that after one hundred years of history, after two imperial wars in Europe and another dozen proxy conflicts around the World in poor and subjugated lands throughout the Cold War years, we in the West are just going to leave these poor hoors to their fate.

There's as great an argument for a full NATO commitment to this as there was in the Yugoslav wars, and how many histories of that have you read which basically admitted that what was committed was too little and too late.

Must we wait for a few dozen Srebrenicas in Ukraine, or a base of nuclear bombers to be installed within sight of Poland?

Mind you I do already know the answer. The collective impotence of 2014 doomed Ukraine.

24-02-2022 3:19am

Flinty997 · 24-02-2022 4:07am

I'm open to correction but afaik NATO has no mandate here.

UN does. But Putin doesn't care.

Spook_ie · 24-02-2022 4:27am

The problem as I see it, isn't going to be Ukraine itself, IF Putin invades all of the Ukraine then you can bet your bottom dollar that there would be a guerilla war staged from the likes of Poland, Slovakia,Romania and Hungary by a displaced population and that would be a major crisis in the making for Europe and the world

Ahherelads2022 · 24-02-2022 4:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682694#Comment_118682694

Thats a war again Nato and it's one they won't win. Ukraine is easy pickings.

Spook_ie · 24-02-2022 4:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682695#Comment_118682695

They (Russia) would be demanding the countries deal with the insurgents coming into the Ukraine from those countries, where does their governments then stand? Do they put the crush on a displaced population or what?

I know they are all NATO countries listed but I'm not suggesting that the guerillas would be backed by NATO troops, look how long it took for any kind of progress in Iraq,Afghanistan and even NI gainst a guerilla force. Russia even left Afghanistan over a guerilla war back in 1989 after 10 years of fighting.

The whole thing is one hot potato

Ahherelads2022 · 24-02-2022 4:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682704#Comment_118682704

What will happen is they will stalemate and thousands will be dead. But Ukraine can't be seen to look weak as they backed themselves into a position that once they go all in with the west they will be in the European Union and NATO. That didn't happen and they get what was the other option.

Larbre34 · 24-02-2022 5:20am

Explosions being reported by multiple and independent sources in at least 8 separate cities right across Ukraine now.

Who can say now where all this will end, but it's no gamble to say it won't be anywhere good.

Heraclius · 24-02-2022 5:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682766#Comment_118682766

It is depressing and awful.

Larbre34 · 24-02-2022 5:38am

Aye, that it is. An utter failure of modernity and humanity.

The HorsesMouth · 24-02-2022 6:01am

100s of casualties already been reported. Utterly sickening..hard to believe this is where we are in 2022. The world can be a depressing place at times.

Larbre34 · 24-02-2022 6:15am

Putin said the military operation would be intended to "demilitarize and de-nazify Ukraine," but not to occupy it. That message appeared to be aimed not at the separatist republics where Putin has already deployed troops, but to the country as a whole and its leaders in Kyiv.

"To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside: if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history. All relevant decisions have been taken. I hope you hear me," Putin said.

It's not as bad as feared.

It's worse.

Putin has gone all in on a pair of twos.

Montage of Feck · 24-02-2022 6:39am

Has Putin lost it? His statement is pure self serving nonsense; the sour face on him announcing the attack deserves a slap.

gandalf · 24-02-2022 7:02am

Reports that Belarus troops are involved as well.

Russia is now a rogue state and the West in particular the EU need to hurt Putin, his supporters and the Russian people badly. Diplomacy doesn't work with this Dictator, he has spat in the faces of those who attempted it.

All members of the EU need to ensure we offer the refugees from this aggression a safe haven.

We also need to deal with the Russian supporting fifth column within our Union. They need to dealt with immediately.

The EU, the US and the world diddered in 2014, this infamous day is the consequence of that weak response.

lulublue22 · 24-02-2022 7:03am

Explosions in Kyiv now according to sky news - Christ Putin really needs to be stopped.

He’s like that high maintence colleague who gets away with all sorts of **** cos the thoughts of calling them on their behaviour and the subsequent fall out is horrendous.

I know Ukrainne is not in NATO so there will be no NATO boots on the ground - but I found his statement that any state that did try and intervene would face consequences far greater than they’ve ever seen quite chilling - are we talking Nuclear threat ? He certainly seems mad enough to do so. I firmly believe this invasion will strengthen his hand and make him feel invincible. Turbulent times ahead.

Heartbreaking to think how normal everyday people who agitated for change - to improve their everyday lives and those of their families , to exercise their democratic right to self determination are now facing the prospect of a bloody conflict and a return to an autocratic state where the elite suck the life blood from the masses .