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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You do talk some toss JB.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I can go one better than that Doh. I was there in 1798



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Not exactly true Mark 1's in 1944, Hawkers in 1945/46. Vampires were still frontline. The Mark 1's were 11 in number and were made 12 by recovering one that had landed not too damaged. In almost every department including Navy we ditched capability in favour of opening new boxes thereby having a role change and a loss of cutting edge. Floating and Flying is expected but what you can do when you get there is critical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That is very insulting. Poor manners and not prepared to respect other peoples ideas and point of view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Yes, yes it is.

    Every post you make is like you just walked in door, talking the same rubbish that has been debunked a thousand times on the Military forum. Not to mention your dumb Darby O'Gill shtick. It's not a point of view you have, it's just trolling and wasting everyone's time. If I didn't know better, I'd almost think you are simple in the head.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Egad Sir,

    I don't like the cut of your jib!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Yes true, any of the Hurricane marks were long out of frontline European RAF Fighter Command by the time we got them (hence in part why the U.K. was finally willing to sell them) and even then without the invasion panic of 1940 later designs would have replaced them much earlier in service. The Vampire was a first gen design that first flew in 1943, by the time we got them, the rest of the world were bringing the second generation jets into service (let alone better types of first gen ones in service), with the Vampire relegated to trainer usage be the RAF by this time.

    Nor does that change my point that lacking any nationwide C&C capabilities the usefulness of fighters outside of Dublin or air shows were limited anyway as they would never have been directed to any incursion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    All history now. Time to catch up a bit and get back into the jet age.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Obviously with fighters direction is required on a number of fronts. In any standard ATC system Mil ATC and Civilian ATC should be using the same screens, with in addition a suitable system of Forward or battle Field control for CAS and rescue. P31 in Galway bay could have provided ATC for most of the West Coast to 100nm radius, she also could control her own Helo within the range of her own X-band radars. My point is that we carelessly disposed of assets we didn't like for choice reasons which stripped the DF of capabilities. We then didn't replace like with like.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Who was behind the down grading off  L.É. EITHNE was it from the military or the DOD



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  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    When the Dauphin and AC exited stage left, attrition set in as those closest to the project moved on or retired. The ship was reimagined as an OPV, the Flight Deck was compromised by putting a crane close to the hangar with RIB Chocks for an extra boat. Everything from Horizon bar , glide slope and 5 wire handling system became redundant. Not certain what happened the Radar but it was never a mentioned asset thereafter.

    The fault was ours and many gloated at the failure of a white elephant but the failure was one manufactured by those responsible for making it work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    In the Late 90s there was a succession of US presidential visits. One one occasion L.E. Eithne was based in the Shannon Estuary, using it's radar to control the local airspace outside that of Shannon's own primary radar, and in communication with the A/d units located securing the perimeter. (Shannon was closed to everyone during the departure and arrival of POTUS, and a large military force was assisting in perimeter security.

    For later visits,(Bush stayed in Dromolond I think) post 9/11 there was no Naval presence in the estuary, and the USN had an AEGIS off the coast, over the horizon doing the same thing, and the airspace was controlled in the air by unseen US military aircraft. The Irish military presence in Shannon was much larger.

    I visited L.E. Eithne on a NS family day not long after, and surprisingly the Operations room was included in the tour(usually out of bounds on any past tour). The operator positions remained but the equipment had been removed. For a time the DA01 Antennae was also missing from the mast, but this returned. It is many years since I saw it anything other than fore & aft, while on the move, so I think it only existed for decoration in latter years.

    WRT the helideck, during a refit in the early 2000s, the deck was fitted with spots to take TEU tiedowns. There was a plan for it to venture on an overseas supply mission, and the engineers hoped this would demonstrate the Usefulness of the ship without a heli. Then DoD scrubbed the mission, and the capability was never demonstrated. I understand the plan was for at least 6 TEU, plus Mowags on the helideck. The Effer crane by the Main Gun was also removed during this time, as its location was quite exposed, and constant maintenance required to keep it functional had become pointless.

    The latter addition of a crane on the helideck was a surprise to me, as in one go it ruled out any use of the helideck for many of the planned uses, and all operations with aircraft. Given the redesign that had taken place to fit the Caley davits and Ribs on single point launchers P&S ,surely Locating this crane further aft closer to the stern could have kept the helideck available as a clear space for most uses, with a folding crane that gave sufficient reach to lift from the helideck? Indeed why was a decision not made to fit a Cradle for the 3rd Rib aft of the helideck too, permanently? There is plenty of space there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    LOA3 is looking good with current situation….here’s to hoping



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    Just noticed there today, PAK airforce purchasing a 25 J10c’s. I think they are the first customer and are stating it’s much performance wise than the F16(potential purchase for IAC)



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Most likely offered with a heavy discount from the Chinese. They want to proliferate their defence products and with it their sphere of influence. Pakistan used to be fairly reliable as a western partner, but as can be seen with Imran Khan's courtesy visit to Moscow on the opening day of the war on Ukraine, that's no longer the case.

    The planes will probably be embedded with hidden transponders anyway, telling the Chinese every moment of their service life without the Paks ever having a clue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Now that the main opponents of LOA3 have been proven as Putin puppets, definitely. There is even huge support to Cathal Berry's idea of giving Ukraine our anti tank missiles (instead of inevitably writing them off when they become time expired).

    Even the point of neutrality is suddenly getting much discussion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Very good idea. A shame we have not (yet) banned overflying rights to Russian aircraft. Difficult to enforce with no interception aircraft. Deffo in favour in loading up one of the maritime patrol aircraft with whatever can be scraped up in the armoury. Even several crates of hand grenades would come in handy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Delighted the way some of those **** came across in the last few days. Wind bags the lot of them



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    i Like his attitude towards defence you can actually see he cares about it, loa3 I really hope gets moving soon faster than currently going as the Russians look like they are sustaining heavy loses it’s only a matter of time before something gets dropped into the Atlantic aimed at a data cable, Russia is currently offline with cyber attacks from every angle and the swift is removed so they will hit everyone else harder or at least try. We need to up our game asap..



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  • Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭quartz1


    It's reported now that Ireland have closed their Airspace to Russian Airspace..

    This raises two points. Was the decision forced on Ireland by the UK because we rely on them to police it ?

    In any event we have closed the space but have nothing to patrol or defend it.

    I think this solves the question about the need for fighter in my humble inexperienced opinion.

    We may have surrendered the right to make decisions about our own airspace and look like idiots because we can't control such an important area



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    100%.

    Who would have thought that this question, so long debated in conceptual form, as an outlier of possibilities, could come to pass so literally and so starkly and in times of such peril.

    Well it's too late now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Get a life!



  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL


    I think the question of joining NATO will come up soon... Maybe a referendum?



  • Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭quartz1


    It would be reasonable state that it's time for Country to have a debate on Neutrality .........the people's view should be sought and there are reasonable and valid agruements on both sides of the question. Times have changed and head in sand isn't appropriate .



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It's a very, very complicated area, legally.

    Successive Governments have said they will not change our policy of triple lock Neutrality without a referendum. The problem being, Neutrality is not in the constitution, so a referendum isn't needed. And it's not a good idea to put it in there, because it hamstrings any legislative response by the Oireachtas to unforeseen geopolitics, which is not a position you want to be in should the sh1t hit the fan.

    What is in the Constitution is Article 29. 4. 9

    9° the state shall not adopt a decision taken by the european council to establish a common defence pursuant to article 42 of the treaty on european union where that common defence would include the state.

    Now, that on its own, does not guarantee neutrality in itself. We could declare war on Russia tomorrow over the Ukraine invasion, so long as we didn't join a common defence as envisaged by Article 42 of the Lisbon Treaty beforehand.

    Hell, we could even join NATO and not violate that Article!

    It's a mess, it needs a citizens assembly, followed by a special purpose joint Oireachtas Committee to hear submissions and make a recommendation to the Government of the day, to repeal that Constitutional clause and hold a plebiscite on preferred steps forward.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The EU has banned Russian flagged planes, so it’s not because of the U.K., through your point on enforcing it is right, but given Boeing and Airbus have pulled support and the leases have been terminated there won’t be many Russian flights soon enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    I wonder will they be let take all the aircraft out of Russia? I'mean the leased ones. I understand that not all will be in Russia but still it will be interesting to see if they allow the return of those that are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭sparky42


    If they don’t it’s just more economic hassle for them, short term and long term. Short term as I said Boeing and Airbus are pulling their support so within weeks they will likely be hitting issues with spares, long term they effectively steal them and non of the lease companies will ever deal with them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    1 billion in surplus taxation recorded in February but has been war marked for additional funding for the DF….what can be got with that.



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