General Star Trek thread

Evade · 20-02-2022 12:51pm

While the film's decision to decouple itself from the Force as something inherited to an idea that anyone could be a Jedi a good one

@pixelburp

Depending on what you meant by this it's either not true or a terrible idea that contradicts 40 years of established lore.

Not true: Force ability can be passed along family lines like any other trait but it can also manifest in an individual with no record of Force sensitive ancestors and that person could become a Jedi, Sith, or any one of a dozen other Force practitioners with training.

Terrible idea: Given how stupidly OP the Force can be anyone being able to wield it with a little training (or none in the case of Broom Kid) irredeemably breaks the universe.

Evade · 20-02-2022 12:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661921#Comment_118661921

It would probably have been a lot better if he did.

pixelburp · 20-02-2022 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662610#Comment_118662610

I meant more in a narrative or thematic sense, not a strict biological one, relating to where the sequel trilogy seemed to be heading: this idea of the next generation moving away from the past, beyond the mistakes and presumed truths of yore. The Force had become something almost dynastic, the sole reserve of Skywalkers, Palpatines; they being the only "true" wielders of the force (of course there were other Jedi but they always seemed secondary, almost regressive in places such as with the Jedi Council).

Even JJ Abrams own prior film, Episode VII, played with this idea that the world had moved on, heroes forgotten or mythologised. It's easy to forget just how much was already set up in Episode VII, waiting to be expanded on. Last Jedi took that idea and ran with it, the last image a confirmation that indeed, a new set of Force Wielders might shape the galaxy. (Luke rose a ship out of the swamp after a few weeks training - it always seemed like something instinctual, felt not taught and ready to flourish.)

Oh, no. No they won't. Marketing said Rey was a Palpatine now, not some nobody who forged her own destiny (classic Abrams plotting asking more questions than answering), and the day was saved by all our old heroes fighting a bajillion Star Destroyers.

Evade · 20-02-2022 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663247#Comment_118663247

The Force had become something almost dynastic, the sole reserve of Skywalkers, Palpatines; they being the only "true" wielders of the force

Yes the two trilogies centred around the one family and antagonist heavily features that family and antagonist

Luke rose a ship out of the swamp after a few weeks training - it always seemed like something instinctual, felt not taught and ready to flourish

And almost three years of self study. The original trilogy takes place over the course of almost five years, the sequel is about two weeks.

Regarding resurrecting Palpatine yeah it was dumb but so was killing off the person who had been set up as the primary antagonist with no plan.

breezy1985 · 20-02-2022 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663331#Comment_118663331

Snoke was a bit of a nothing character anyway. Should have just went with Kylo and left Palpatine out of it.

Nothing I hate more than the everyone has to be someone shte. Like a certain Vulcan and all his surprise siblings

pixelburp · 20-02-2022 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663331#Comment_118663331

The plan seemed to be Kylo Ren as main antagonist; he inherited the throne by spilling blood after 2 movies following a master like a wounded, angry pup. He wanted so much to be the new Darth Vader, Last Jedi being the point where he snapped and decided to burn it all down (killing the past he was spending so much effort to ape). Snoke was just a classic Abrams cocktease, which Johnson wisely scrubbed. The most obvious symbolism of all this was Kylo smashing up his Vader cosplay mask; it's kinda astonishing to have a Disney blockbuster this openly iconoclastic. Presumably the last part - originally - was for Kylo to face off against his mother and Rey, with a battle for his soul as well as the galaxy. Actual, personal stakes and arcs instead of the "omg you're a Palpatine!" twist. I know there was a draft by Colin Trevorrow before Abrams took over, apparently rubbish, but don't know the details.

FGR · 20-02-2022 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663529#Comment_118663529

One would presume that Picard and Dr McCoy know Sarek and Spock's dirty children/sibling secrets!

Evade · 20-02-2022 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663661#Comment_118663661

There was no plan and that is a major fault of the sequel trilogy. Abrams had some bad set up in the first movie then Johnson threw out most of that and put his own bad set ups which Abrams was forced to try finish up. I'd cut Johnson a lot more slack if he had intended to do the third film as well but that was never the case. He put in a lot of stuff that the film-y people seem to eat up but never put in any thought as to how to tie it up.

breezy1985 · 20-02-2022 6:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663822#Comment_118663822

He also never thought that hey "if I can just lightspeed my ship through a whole fleet why did we ever bother trying to skim X-wings across the Death Star to shoot a tiny hole"

Evade · 20-02-2022 7:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664220#Comment_118664220

Which was then had to be retconned into a one in a million chance in the next film so space battles could happen again. The sequel trilogy really is a disaster.

pixelburp · 20-02-2022 8:06pm

Space is dangerous; once more showing how great The Expanse was/is, in that it understood a terminal amount of damage could be done with a single rock and enough velocity. A single stray bullet capable of ripping a ship or person to shreds.

The entiriy of Star Wars' battles hinge on suspension of disbelief; Episode IV a riff on Dambusters / 633 Squadron, and barely held up to scrutiny. The rebel fleet should have been shot out of space before those S Foils went to attack position. I think people are too exacting on the sequels, when the originals had as much bullshít.

Or Trek really. Amazing how all those ships always managed to appear on the exact same plane and orientation every week 🤭🥴 Even Battlestar was guilty of that, for the captial ships anyway

breezy1985 · 20-02-2022 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664636#Comment_118664636

BSG didn't do that in fact it was the first show I remember that didn't. Yes the fleet flew the same way up but when Cylons would jump in the could be anywhere and at any sort of tilt.

Evade · 20-02-2022 8:53pm

I'm not holding the sequels to what real physics does, I'm holding them to what Star Wars physics does and for 10,000+ years of space battles that's not how the hyperdrive worked. But then again weapons disappear when it's inconvenient to the protagonist in TLJ so maybe the rest of the universe just shrugged and gave up. It's a poorly executed film with a litany of problems.

pixelburp · 20-02-2022 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118664718#Comment_118664718

Ah, been a while. I was remembering the Fleet all right, but yes as you say it the various ships would pop up on different planes.

magicbastarder · 20-02-2022 9:36pm

Or Trek really. Amazing how all those ships always managed to appear on the exact same plane and orientation every week 🤭🥴 Even Battlestar was guilty of that, for the captial ships anyway

i think SG1 took the piss out of this in their 100th episode. along with a lot of other things.

B.A._Baracus · 25-02-2022 5:10pm

Random thought,

I just came across some articles of how Kate Mulgrew hated the 7of9 character. She said unnecessary tna, the character had so many episodes blah blah blah. I don't get it tho, Kate had to have been the highest paid actor on the show being the captain and let's be honest, having a tall beautiful leggy blonde in a skin tight catsuit was always going to increase ratings. So how was it bad?

Jeri Ryan joined in Season 4 so Mulgrew would have had a contract renegotiations at some point after. More ratings = demand more money. So surely it was a good thing having 7of9?

breezy1985 · 25-02-2022 5:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692331#Comment_118692331

It seems she felt the show became about 7 and not the captain and she felt it was purely because the producers were infatuated with her cause of the TNA.

There is a good chance that is why she was brought in but the show pivoted towards her because she was by far and away the best character and actor on a bland as fek ship. Outside of the also quality doctor the crew was a Vulcan and a bunch of people with less emotion than the Vulcan with the exception of the obvious grumpy Klingon character.

For a crew mixed 70k light-years from home they all settle in so fast. Only 7 an dthe Doctor go on real "journeys" as people.

magicbastarder · 25-02-2022 5:35pm

let's be honest, having a tall beautiful leggy blonde in a skin tight catsuit was always going to increase ratings. So how was it bad?

because it was awfully tacky in a show which was supposedly set in a future where women were empowered by their skills?

breezy1985 · 25-02-2022 5:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692476#Comment_118692476

Berman was pretty famous for it. He meddled in DS9 too if the girls were not dressed tight enough.

It was no reason for Mulgrew to treat Ryan like sht though. Wasn't Ryans fault she was given a job.

Evade · 25-02-2022 6:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692476#Comment_118692476

It's possible to be both attractive and skilled.

breezy1985 · 25-02-2022 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692663#Comment_118692663

I'de love if they cgied a proper uniform on to her for all reruns of the show for the laugh and same for T'Pol. It's the 21st century we don't need Star Trek to double as our porn.

Evade · 25-02-2022 6:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692708#Comment_118692708

She looked just as good in the science division uniform in Relativity. Same for Captain T'Pol in Twilight.

breezy1985 · 25-02-2022 7:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692852#Comment_118692852

Thats the stupid thing. No one was ever put off the Daxs, Torres or Beverly cause of the uniform.

As always Jellico was the true hero of TNG. Not only did he know a good shift rotation but he was also the first person to show Troi some respect.

B.A._Baracus · 25-02-2022 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118692476#Comment_118692476

You could argue that. Another could argue it was simply a tv product to make money and on tv (and film) sex sells.

I do get what you are saying. But as The Red Hot Chilli Peppers once sang: "Space may be the final frontier but it's made in a Hollywood basement."

magicbastarder · 25-02-2022 11:32pm

i don't think anyone would argue with that, but that doesn't address the issue that it cheapened the show.

25-02-2022 11:36pm

He doubled down with T'pol and those god awful decontamination scenes

Shoog · 25-02-2022 11:41pm

Keep giving Discovery the benefit of the doubt but its been a disappointment since half way through the first season. Easily the worst Star Trek series so far. Picard proves they can still get it right so why is Discovery so dreadful ?

Evade · 25-02-2022 11:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118694455#Comment_118694455

To be fair she wasn't alone in there

25-02-2022 11:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118694486#Comment_118694486

Yeah but she was the only one in a cat suit also

Rawr · 26-02-2022 8:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118694471#Comment_118694471

You could argue that Picard had the benefit of TNG to fall back on as a foundation, and that although some of the cast was a bit off much of it was pretty solid with Patrick Steward leading the line up as a great actor himself.

Discovery started on the very shaky foundation of not being sure if it belonged to classic Trek or to the 2009 Movie universe. To compound this the antology concept they were going to go for ended up as a continuing series which had little to no long term plan. (TNG shows were like this too, but they at least knew that they wanted to last a few seasons, and were better at it). And the cherry at the top of this half-baked Trek cake is of course Michael Burnham, the star of their original antology idea now stretched out to carry a multi-season show with an actor who simply does not have the range to do that.

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