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Nuclear - future for Ireland?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭specialbyte


    Some translation. Third last sentence: "there's nothing better than energy independence". Second last sentence: "the Greens are silly for wanting future investments in renewables that give us greater energy independence instead of relying on imported gas that keeps us dependent on others". Have I got that right?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Very roughly speaking you need a good 200-300m or more height difference and be within twice that distance to the coast. Like the Silvermines the lower reservoir already exists but the upper one has to be build from scratch. For Silvermines they are proposing external pipes, it's way cheaper than tunnelling. Probably wouldn't get away with that as coast is scenic. Unless you use the cheap trick of hiding the pipes in a forest so they don't ruin the view.

    Another scheme I saw used Poulaphouca as the lower reservoir and tunnel through to the east side of Mullaghcleevaun above Glenmacnass

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station - Area of natural beauty, they undergrounded everything even though it's was a post industrial landscape of an abandoned quarry.


    There's 2.5GW of battery storage being looked at.

    Short duration only. So in theory could handle a reactor scram. Our grid rules say that you'd have 5 seconds to from 0 to 1.2GW ie. 75% of a 1.6GW reactor. It takes 7.6 seconds minimum to fall 286 meters so you couldn't use pumped storage.

    But nuclear plants can stay off line forever so you'd still need full backup at short notice and for extended periods.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Thanks.

    Close to the coast to uptake the seawater?

    External pipes would be significantly cheaper indeed. I be guessing reinforced concrete.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,918 ✭✭✭SeanW



    @concbui you are 100% correct. Everything our mainstream environmental movement has done over the last 50 years has made the unfolding humanitarian catastrophe in Ukraine inevitable. And there's likely worse to come. Opposing LNG terminals to import gas from diverse sources. Opposing nuclear energy to keep us reliant on fossil fuels for at minimum decades more than we needed to be. Insisting on the use of power sources so unreliable that they could only be paired with one other power source, i.e. gas.

    I've been warning of the danger of relying on Russia for gas for years. Unfortunately, I can't take any pleasure in saying "I told you so" because of all suffering being inflicted on the people of Ukraine, but the simple fact is that our insane energy policies have emboldened Putin to simply do what he likes, and we should have isolated ourselves from Russia by any means necessary long ago.

    @specialbyte How does investment in renewables make us less dependent on gas? The arguments I've seen against nuclear energy is that since renewables are so unreliable, they need very flexible power sources to back them up, the only option for which is gas. Thusly, according to anti-nukes, the very presence of renewables on a power grid is an argument for gas instead of nuclear, as current gen nuclear reactors cannot scale up and down with the insane flexibility required to react to changes in the weather affecting other generators. Guess where much of Western Europe's gas comes from? I'll give you a clue, it's big, cold, East of here, and they've just sent lots of so-called "men" with names like Ivan and Vladimir into Ukraine to murder children in hospitals with attack helicopters.

    Because for all the hot air about renewables going back maybe half a century, the fact is that in current service today there are only two known working methods for a (near) fossil fuel free power grid:

    1. Be fortunate enough to have favourable geography with river valleys for hydroelectricity and geothermal resources (like Norway, Iceland etc)
    2. Use nuclear energy (like France)
    3. A combination of 1 and 2 (like Sweden)

    https://app.electricitymap.org/



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    By 2030 we have to reduce emissions by 80% (not 2035, not that nuclear could be build here by them)

    So we'd only need 20% as much gas so less imports and gas fields last years longer. We have some gas and import the rest from the North Sea / north of Scotland and they allocated 28GW of offshore wind so far this year.


    We are getting 40% of our electricity from renewables already. Installing lots more wind should easily get us to 80% in conjunction other upgrades.

    If we add double our existing capacity of wind then about 60% of the time the grid could be powered from wind alone and the other 40% of the time from a mix of wind and not-wind at an average of 20% each. Initially most of that not-wind would be gas, but even gas could move to bio-methane / hydrogen.


    Demand will go up for e-cars and heat pumps and data centres. Nuclear's long lead time means if we can't predict the future accurately then we either tie up huge amounts of capital in white elephants or we have a shortfall later on.

    Wind is far more flexible in construction. If you build half a wind farm you get half the power. If you build half a reactor then you still have loans to pay.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,763 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Well the German example suggests epic fail on all those fronts



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Do you mean the German grid that stopped building new coal plants in 2007*, has removed most of nuclear, and handled a rapid drop of 15GW in solar because of an eclipse, and hasn't increased pumped storage much ?

    Or the one with rolling blackouts ?


    *Datteln 4's approval wasn't legal.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I think it needs repeating about Germany and Gas. The Germans mostly use gas for home heating, it only makes up a relatively small 15% of their electricity generation.

    There is no risk to German electricity generation here. The issue for them is their home heating, not electricity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭specialbyte


    The question is how to secure energy independence for Ireland. When talking about electricity generation, there's really only two ways: using renewables, using our own domestic fossil fuel resources extracted by a state owned fossil fuel company, or a mix of both.

    It's important to look at where our gas comes today. One third is from the Corrib gas field in Mayo. Two thirds come via Scotland from the North Sea. It's estimated that only 3% of our gas comes from Russia. Source: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/electricity-customers-to-save-60-on-annual-bills-as-public-service-levy-to-be-all-but-abolished-41378584.html

    It is worth pointing out that strictly speaking even the domestic supply of gas from Corrib isn't earmarked for the Irish market. A private company operates that gas field and they can sell the gas to whomever they like at market prices. In reality though the gas is likely to be exported that far.

    It's also useful to look at wind situation in Ireland. The more we can use wind power the smaller the volume of gas we need to burn to generate electricity. If we reduce our gas requirements it will give us two advantages: we can import less gas onto the island and we can reduce how quickly we need to extract gas from Corrib, which will give the Corrib gas field a longer life expectancy.

    There is lots of opportunity to increase wind usage in Ireland. We're currently only generating 40% of our electricity from wind. EirGrid have a plan to be generating 80% of our power from wind by 2030. Most of that extra wind power is displacing gas from our grid, meaning we burn less gas. Our reserves will last longer and we will need to import a smaller percentage of our energy.

    There's two areas where we can increase wind usage:

    1. Grid operation improvements: currently we artificially limit ourselves to a maximum of 75% wind at any one time. EirGrid are working on changes to operating rules and grid investments so we can use up to 95% wind at any one time. The full details on what we need to do on the operational side is here: https://www.eirgridgroup.com/site-files/library/EirGrid/Full-Technical-Report-on-Shaping-Our-Electricity-Future.pdf
    2. Build more wind farms: the nameplate capacity of all of the wind farms on the island of Ireland is 5,585MW. Peak demand is 6,500MW. There's still room to add more wind farms. More wind equals burning less gas, particularly imported gas.

    For the times when we need to burn gas because the wind isn't blowing (on average 20% of the time) we can rely on our own gas supply from Corrib or gas from Scotland. I'd rather be relying on only sourcing 20% of our electricity from potentially imported fossil fuels than our current 60%.

    There's no country in the world fully isolated from world energy markets. If we are nuclear powered we also would not be energy independent as we have no source of uranium for our reactors. Though I will grant it is easier to stockpile years worth of uranium fuel than gas etc.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,763 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    It would be the Germany that despite current actions in Ukraine - is in no position to sanction the Russian Gas/oil industry



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,763 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    You seem to think that nameplate capacities on wind turbines actually mean something in the real world🙄. It amazes me that your type continue to believe in this nonsense when it has clearly failed in place like Germany which is now more dependent on imported power than ever. The facts are that building any amount of windfarms will make FA difference to our energy dependency cos during poor wind conditions, 50 windfarms are just as useless as 5.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    And yet Germany has already stopped Nord stream 2, a €9.5Bn project

    Renewables and pumped storage in Germany over the last month compared to total consumption. So a lot of fossil fuel displaced.

    Nuclear over the last year wasn't producing anything near renewables. And output not as stable as biomass.



  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭specialbyte


    You're like a bull to a red rag anytime anyone says "nameplate capacity". The point of the paragraph was that current nameplate capacity in Ireland is less than peak demand. It doesn't matter if nameplate capacity is something that rarely, if ever, will be reached in Ireland. The point is that we don't have enough wind turbines to power the whole country even if the grid could take 100% wind power. As a result more wind turbines can be added to the grid to generate more wind power, which would displace more gas power, which lowers the volume of gas we need to burn, which given our reliance on imported gas would increase our energy independence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,763 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    That will only be temporary until the Ukraine situation sorts itself out - in the meantime they are sourcing LPG from the likes of Qatar and its notable that they will not be sanctioning any Russian banks that handle the payments for current Russian gas imports



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,763 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    That is simplistic nonsense that has no real world application. Covering seas and land with wind turbines has not made Germany anymore energy independent then it was 30 years ago and it will be the same here.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,918 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Considering that the alternative is to buy LNG from Russia, thus helping Vladimir Putin to murder children in Ukraine (and potentially other countries in the future), it stands to reason that the Japanese would support alternatives.

    Wish I could say the same about other places ...



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    That's far from the only alternive. As early as February Japan was diverting shipments of LNG to Europe

    Japan gets less than a tenth of it's LNG from Russia. And the Russians still haven't returned some islands after WWII so there's that too.

    Most of their LNG is imported from Oz , Malaysia and Qatar , the USA , Brunei, Papua.

    BTW Oz , Vietnam and the Netherlands moved all moved 10% of their electricity production from fossil fuel to renewables in the last two years.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,918 ✭✭✭SeanW


    From the Japan Times article above:

    It comes amid surging power prices and warnings of electricity shortages in Tokyo.

    And this is with Russian LNG imports. It does not say much for the other "alternatives" sounds like they're having serious problems because of their decision to stop using nuclear energy without having anything to replace it with ...



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Hinkley C. Another delay and price increase.

    The last round in January added £500 million and six months delaying it to June 2026.

    In a note to its 2021 annual report, EDF said that risks to schedule and cost at completion targets had increased, citing the ongoing impact of the pandemic and Brexit, lower-than-expected civil performance and tensions in global building materials markets. In addition, permit delays have slowed progress on offshore marine works. And my dog ate my homework etc.

    This time they are blaming the war in Ukraine. Any guesses how much they'll try and squeeze out this time ?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    "Plans for new reactors at Vogtle in Georgia are reportedly behind schedule and overbudget"

    Major construction on Vogtle began in 2012 with a $14 billion price tag and expected startup dates of 2016 and 2017. It's now close to £30Bn and with startup dates of 2023. It's 2.2 GW


    The latest delay is because workers noticed that “tens of thousands” of critical inspection records were missing or incomplete when they were preparing to send them to the federal safety regulators. It's going to cost $920m because no one heard of ISO 9000 or no checked the records before ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭gjim



    The funny thing is that while Vogtle is an epic disaster, arguably it's actually the least worst disaster of all the few nuclear plant projects in the US over the last 3 decades. At least it might eventually actually produce some electricity - 3 times over budget and years late - although each kWh will be the most expensive in the western world.

    Have a look at V. C. Summers - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nukegate_scandal - South Carolina's unfortunate electricity consumers are on hock for $9 billion for an abandoned project - as a result South Carolina has the HIGHEST electricity prices in the US.

    Or Bellefonte - $6 billion down the swanney - another completely abandoned project that has and will never deliver a single joule of electricity.

    In fact the only reactors to come online in the last 30 years in the US is Watts Barr 1 and 2 and Comanche Peak 2 all of which started construction in the 1970s!! All decades late and multiple times over budget.

    And.... that's it. That's the complete story of the last 3 decades of nuclear power in the USA. Not one single success story in 30 years.

    Nuclear is dead because the industry is fundamentally incompetent, is incapable of delivering and is in fact in many cases is championed by criminally corrupt companies (couple of Westinghouse executives are serving prison time). But no, we're expected to believe if it wasn't for those damned hippies and misguided Green politicians, nuclear would deliver us energy nirvana.

    And given all this history, we're expected to swallow the line that this forms of generation is a solution that Ireland should embrace. It's beyond daft - it's complete away-with-the-fairies stuff. Remember unlike the yanks, we have zero infrastructure for fuel handling, zero infrastructure for securing facilities, zero technical expertise, zero supporting grid infrastructure, zero anything required to support nuclear generation.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Also, do not forget the Russians were shelling a huge nuclear reactor site in Ukraine which was never built to withstand such attack. If they are forced to retreat from that area, will they boobytrap the reactors, or worse blow them up?

    Nuclear is just too dangerous to be seen as anything other than the environmental disasters as the part played by asbestos, DDT, glycophosphates, and other chemical wonders that have left a lasting imprint of the planet.

    Even the modern wonder of plastic that has transformed much of manufacturing is now being shown to generate micro-plastics that insinuate every aspect of life on earth and existance. Their long term impact is not known and can only be assumed - that is they can only be assumed to be bad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,184 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Even if it never comes to pass, this is a great read. The numbers in it are hard to grasp, Mach 204 and 100 terapascals.

    Plus I now know about the Pistol Shrimp.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "Also, do not forget the Russians were shelling a huge nuclear reactor site in Ukraine which was never built to withstand such attack. If they are forced to retreat from that area, will they boobytrap the reactors, or worse blow them up?"

    Fortunately the Russians have exited the Chernobyl region and returned the site to Ukrainian control, though they still control another working power plant (6 reactors) down South East of Ukraine.

    But not before digging trenches in the Red Forest, one of the most irradiated places on earth. Seemingly one Russian soldier has already died of radiation and hundreds more are getting treatment for radiation in Belarus.

    But worse, they drove most of their armour and trucks in the region through that forest and now there are serious concerns of those vehicles carrying radioactive soil and dirt all over Belarus and Russia!

    Interestingly it seems many of the Russian soldiers had never heard of Chernobyl or what had happened there! Which brings into the question the entire concept of how you safely store radioactive waste for tens of thousands of years. Chernobyl was just 35 years ago, yet these Russians didn't seem to even know about it or the dangers involved and just ignored all the danger signs that are every where there.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    "offers a pathway to a very competitive Levelised Cost Of Energy ("LCOE") of under US$50/MWh."

    Can't compete with wind or solar so probably non-starter if storage costs continue to fall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,591 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    What is the cost of solar and battery in Ireland ? Cos solar without a battery is going to be really heavily weighted to the few hours around noon - and obviously summer months ( no battery for that )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    I see Johnson has a plan to build 8 new nuclear power stations in the UK.

    That should help power the new airport he was planning and the trains planned across the bridge/tunnel between Scotland and NI


    .



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    "The government hopes to have a new reactor approved each year until 2030 with the aim to have them up and running by 2050"

    By which time all the decision makers will have safely retired. On a completely unrelated topic there is a high correlation between corrupt countries and nuclear power.

    "On 18 July 2011 the House of Commons debated and approved the 6 NPSs". (Nuclear Power Stations) Since them Hinkley C is both late and over budget at £23Bn and delayed to 2026. And lots of the exiting nuclear power stations closed down they are looking for 8 instead of 6.

    2050 is far enough away to justify building new gas or wind or solar now



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Ah yes, nuclear corruption correlation: US, Sweden, UK, Canada, France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Japan...



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    As many as 25 of state-run utility Electricite de France SA’s 56 nuclear reactors are offline, just as overnight temperatures in most of the country are set to fall below freezing.

    Wow , that's spectacular.

    The promise of nuclear is that the insane costs will provide guaranteed continuity of supply. Instead you get multiple failure modes in units that are large enough to affect the grid significantly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,591 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Always a bit wary of those Enron style ridiculous spot prices - I assume theres an upper level where all available generation is online ( and its not 3grand a kwh ) - and a level where anybody who can easily not use power is going to do that ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Will they not import electricity over the various interconnectors they have?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Further on it mentions €551/MWh which is extortionate but believable but that's not the price the consumer sees as it's averaged out. Unless you live n Texas and have a really awful contract.

    That's the easy bit. It's finding 11GW to import that's not so easy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭gjim


    I see wind is doing ok at the moment in Ireland - with net exports of about 400MW.

    Thankfully in a few years, when the Celtic Inter-connector is up and running (hopefully the first of many) and the newly licensed wind and solar PV has been installed, Ireland would be in a position to help dig our French friends out of the hole they find themselves in (and earn money at the same time).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,184 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Although Tesco would claim otherwise, our 700MW interconnector would be only able to provide 1% of French system demand. So we're going to need a bigger interconnector if we truly want to help.

    I'm curious why you think the French have dug themselves into a hole? Is it because of their current or future nuclear strategy? I also think that they're in a good position to pivot to solar if they wanted. Large parts of the unfarmable south could be plastered with the latest gen solar panels in a relatively short time frame.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭gjim


    Ah I wasn’t really being serious - more a response to the constant veneration of the French electricity strategy by the nuclear fan club here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    "Japan will take firm steps to restart idled nuclear power plants to make maximum use of nuclear power to stabilize energy prices and supply, Prime Minister Fumio Kishida said on Friday.

    “With priority in safety, we will take concrete steps to restart (plants), while the government is not considering to replace” existing nuclear power plants with newer facilities, Kishida told parliament." https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/27/japan-to-restart-idled-nuclear-power-plants-says-its-prime-minister.html

    Someone seeing sense, which can't be said for the Putin fanboy Germans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭gjim


    The case for extending the life of existing nuclear reactors which have reached the end of their design life has always been far more reasonable than the case for building new ones. It's not amazingly cost-effective in LCOE terms compared to solar/PV but, to be fair, it is competitive. I've no problem with it at all as a carbon emission reduction strategy. It's building new ones that's daft given the costs/time/project risks and the modern competition.

    However even if fully perused as an energy strategy (refurbing existing plants), the contribution to carbon reduction in electricity would be minor in the medium term and negligible in the longer term. It's not going to do anything to arrest the relentless expansion of wind and solar and battery storage.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,763 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    We would need some concrete evidence soon on your claims about wind/solar - repeating the old mantra that such things will be cheap and an effective element on a grid is starting to wear rather thin for many, not least the hard pressed energy users here and on other "windy" grids



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    We currently are in an energy cost crisis with the failure of renewables being a core plank in that, but it's still being touted as a solution even after such a massive failure.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The energy cost crisis is caused by the manipulation of the energy market, and by the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the resultant sanctions against Russia. There is no reason why renewables are more expensive except opportunism by those suppliers.

    However:

    1. Nuclear cannot be a solution in Ireland unless the law is changed.
    2. Even so, it would take at least a decade for a nuclear plant to be built and commissioned - assuming it could be built in time as most under construction are suffering massive delays, not to mention massive cost overruns.
    3. Whatever about renewable energy being unreliable, if we have many forms of it, it is unlikely they would all fail at the same time. Even wind will probably be more reliable once we get offshore arrays on the west, east and south coasts.
    4. It would be necessary to have a backup that can cope with a shutdown of the reactor. Perhaps that might mean two reactors, but that would be more than we need, unless they were small modular reactors that have not been built anywhere yet.




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Point of information : Hundreds of small modular reactors have been built and operated safely since the 1950's by NATO. They have had higher production runs, standardisation and economies of scale that the people trying to sell power station reactors can only dream of. But they aren't remotely close to being cheap. The French ones use lower enrichment ~10% so that's not even an issue. The commercial ones only exist only on paper and aren't proven and won't be proven until there's a good few of them reliably in service.


    Our grid can take 75% of non-synchronous electricity. The kit to take it to 95% is slowly being rolled out. That leaves us with a minimum 5% baseload demand which can be fulfilled with hydro, waste to energy, CHP, biomass etc. As Nuclear can only supply large amounts of steady baseload (while it's working) there will be no guaranteed demand for it's output by the time it's constructed. It would have to compete on the wholesale price at the time.

    We can use fossil fuel for grid stabilisation near the large cities or for peaking or backup to renewables, up to an annual total of 20% of current emissions, until 2050. Nuclear can't do any of those things. And fossil fuel can be replaced by bio-fuels and hydrogen in the future.

    It costs about £30 - $60 million to build hydrolyser factories per GW of annual production. That's at the level of the rounding error on the annual cost increases of Hinkley C. And as volume increases the costs of the hydrolysers is falling like solar or lithium batteries.

    Hydrogen storage may not be the best or cheapest solution. Months of storage mean that even at an efficiency of 40% from solar or wind it completely undermines nuclear costs. Target for Spain is €1/MWh contracts in the foreseeable future for solar while nuclear is near €13/MWh (Hinkley C)



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    53% of electricity from wind in Feb.

    I'll let you work out if we would have needed to use double the amount of fossil fuel then if we hadn't have had renewables.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Change the law. Passing such a law in the first place is, like, banning LNG terminals wholesale because ... what was the reason again?

    So it takes a decade, which is how much longer a nuclear power plant is likely to be operational for than an offshore wind farm, at the best estimates.

    Dunkelflaute - the Germans even have a word for the fact renewables frequently fail coincidentally.

    Gas turbines can back up nuclear, but with a 96% reliability/availability, you might have a problem finding and dusting off the manual on how to start them up when you need them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,968 ✭✭✭trellheim


    wind right now is currently generating far less than 10% of all electricity used, Natural Gas is at 75%


    Even if we doubled the turbines we had right now it would be less than 20%. If it was windy that number would go up, but its not windy.


    Nuclear is needed, and we would need two plants for when one is out for maintenance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,184 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Today would be a good day for solar though. Nuclear is never going to happen in Ireland. We're too small and it's too unpalatable.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    96% reliability ? Across a full fleet, including construction delays, refuelling and early end of life ?

    I'll remind you again that France had 26 nukes offline recently out of 56.

    Excluding renewables our baseload is 2GW and our peak usage is 6GW. That other 4GW is a huge cost for fossil fuel for peaking or a huge cost having idle nuclear plants.

    Dunkelflaute - the German word for we can use gas for one fifth of the time and still remain within our 2050 target. But we'll have interconnectors and storage and other generators too.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,591 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    And what's acting as spinning reserve for the one reactor when the other is being maintained ? A third reactor ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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