Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Dempo1 · 27-02-2022 12:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701734#Comment_118701734

I'm not doubting you but if they required a Visa to travel , how exactly would they travel and then Normalise their position 🤔, surely they would not gain entry to start with in order to normalise anything 🤔

This aside from the recent decision re waiving visa requirements 🤔

27-02-2022 12:47pm

Sorry for long post. Fully expect to be digitally lynched for this on here, but reality matters, so here goes.

It's a lie to say that the Ukranian government is neo-Nazi.

It is also a lie to say that there aren't neo-Nazis in Ukraine, now subsumed into the National Guard and Army. Actual neo-Nazis and white supremacists, that is. It's ugly, but it's true.

Here's an article from the notorious Putin bots at the BBC about it:

But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong. As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.

And those Kremlinistas in the Democratic Party:

In October 2019, members of the US House of Representatives from the Democratic Party requested that the Azov Battalion and two other far-right groups be classified as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the US State Department, citing recent acts of right-wing violence such as the Christchurch mosque shootings earlier that year. The request spurred protests by Azov's supporters in Ukraine.

You can check out their human rights violations, including torturing a man with intellectual disabilities here (page has links to the OHCR reports).

Israel's Haaretz:

A group of more than 40 human rights activists have filed a petition with the High Court of Justice, demanding the cessation of Israeli arms exports to Ukraine. They argue that these weapons serve forces that openly espouse a neo-Nazi ideology and cite evidence that the right-wing Azov militia, whose members are part of Ukraine’s armed forces, and are supported by the country’s ministry of internal affairs, is using these weapons.

Russia is still in the wrong, and they are exaggerating the neo-Nazi element to include the entire government, but make no mistake there is support for white nationalist neo-Nazi extremists in Ukraine. One totalitarian hatred (the communism Ukraine endured) breeds another (Naziism).

I still went to the GPO protest yesterday knowing all this, because Russia is in the wrong, but it is essential that we live in the real world.

Be interesting to see whether there is crossover between anti-immigrant sentiment among certain posters on Boards and loud (to the point of irrationality) support for Ukraine. And watch out for anyone signing the praises of the Azov Battalion. We see the Putin bots and we see you too.

Economics101 · 27-02-2022 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701840#Comment_118701840

I'm not trying to excuse the Saudis: they have been widely criticised in the West. However the Houthis in Yemen are no slouches at launching missile attacks on Saudi and UAE, and more importantly, they are backed by Iran. The Houthi/Iran alliance is not a peaceful democracy like Ukraine was until last week.

You are obviously motivated by hatred of the USA and NATO, which drowns out any real concern you have for what is being done to Ukraine. Once again (and I know that I am wasting my time with you) don't deviate from the topic which is all about Russia, a gangster state, attacking a weaker neighbour.

Brussels Sprout · 27-02-2022 12:49pm

Lukashenko is entirely dependent on Putin. His own people despise him (He's been in power for even longer then Putin has). Rumour has it that in the 2020 election the opposition candidate, Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, got >70% of the vote at the ballot boxes. Instead they announced that she had gotten only 10% and then promptly arrested her (perfectly normal behaviour)! That led to months of street protests, strikes and civil disobedience culminating in Lukashenko running to Putin to get his backing. If anything happens to Putin then he knows that he will fall. Hence he is going to be as desperate as Putin is to crush Ukraine and I expect him to commit war crimes in order to do so.

Dempo1 · 27-02-2022 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701723#Comment_118701723

Just saw an interview on BBC with Ukrainian Ambassador to UK, he's saying its too late , Germanys change in policy.

lulublue22 · 27-02-2022 12:50pm

Reports of Protests in Belarus . According to the poster protest queues have returned - in order to try and circumvent anti protest laws people stand in queues. Apparently arrests are beginning.

https://twitter.com/den_2042/status/1497896256814948355?s=21

Gatling · 27-02-2022 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701852#Comment_118701852

Seems to be the case for Russians when the Ukrainians start shooting

Gatling · 27-02-2022 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701885#Comment_118701885

There was a Russian spy plane took off at the time ,this is likely the aircraft it was mentioned earlier

Gary kk · 27-02-2022 1:03pm

Mods can remove if not allowed.

https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-spetsrahunok-dlya-zboru-koshtiv-na-potrebi-armiyi

27-02-2022 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701908#Comment_118701908

I don't think anyone here thought that the Ukraine was a liberal utopia.

Brussels Sprout · 27-02-2022 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701908#Comment_118701908

That's a fair and balanced post. It's certainly a nuanced issue - which of course means that it's easy to simplify it and distort it in whatever direction someone chooses.

The question is how prevalent is it in the Ukrainian armed forces? Ideally there would be no far-right elements in an army. I know that, for example, the German army found out a number of years ago that they had their own far-right problems within their ranks (which shocked people given their own history). How much extra magnification has the issue gotten in the Ukrainian army because it's being used for propaganda purposes by Putin?

This has been absolutely lapped up by the "Everything is NATO's fault" brigade in the west. They seek comfort in their conviction that the Ukrainian army is a hotbed of Neo Nazis which gives themselves the moral fortitude to denounce them with gusto even as they defend their country for their lives.

What we can say for sure is that it doesn't seem to have affected politics. Far-right parties got in the low single digits of support in the last election (2% I believe) and of course the President is jewish who lost family members in the Holocaust.

Vladimir Putin's claims that Ukraine is a Neo-Nazi state or is being run by Neo Nazis is a provable and absurd lie.

lulublue22 · 27-02-2022 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701913#Comment_118701913

Germany’s change in policy is to protect Germany and to strengthen it from threats going forward.Unless he’s just acknowledged on live tv that German aid - military , finical and humanitarian is too little to late and Ukraine has lost or is losing the war? It would be a strange change in Ukrainian diplomatic policy to single out a single country from the EU and criticise their support - all diplomatic overtures so far seem to be thankful for support and aid and keeping lines of communication open with all influential players in the West. Also does very little for Ukraine to sow division in the EU.

kravmaga · 27-02-2022 1:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701187#Comment_118701187

Also a lot of Russian tanks and trucks are running out of fuel, supply lines are stretched, Ukranian Armed Forces are taking the fight to the Russians, they have captured a Russian tank crew, looks like genuine footage.

Dempo1 · 27-02-2022 1:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701993#Comment_118701993

I'm just reporting what he said but I believe his point was it's a little late in the day generally.

ancapailldorcha · 27-02-2022 1:24pm

Snide comments removed and posters infracted. Be civil or bans may follow.

lulublue22 · 27-02-2022 1:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702029#Comment_118702029

That makes absolutely no sense at all - a little late in the day for what ? To strengthen itself against the potential of future threat - Does he believe NATO is not a credible force and not worth strengthening ? A little late to be sending aid ? Is the Ukrainian ambassador to the UK conceding that Ukraine will be or is on the brink of defeat ? Why would Ukraine who is depending on western support including that of the EU try and change a highly successful diplomatic campagin of the anti - war alliance fighting to one of calling out countries for doing too little to late ? Particularly given it’s objectives of EU membership and alliance with the EU

McGinniesta · 27-02-2022 1:33pm

I'll readily admit to lacking real knowledge here but I have a couple of questions?

If I have this correct then NATO was founded in the aftermath of the second world war to attempt to counteract future Russian and German aggression. Now that this has happened, albeit 70 years after NATO was founded, why hasn't NATO acted?

Secondly, this is perhaps a trivial observation but why has the media coverage been so poor. Given that this event is potentially so significant why isn;t there footage of the fighting coming out?

All we have is smart phone and CCTV footage. What are the news crews doing over there?

Dempo1 · 27-02-2022 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702079#Comment_118702079

Why don't you search the BBC website and work it out , do you expect me to know what the ambassador meant with his comments 🤔, I can only guess based on what he said

27-02-2022 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702087#Comment_118702087

NATO countries protect each other (in theory), non NATO countries like Ukraine aren't part of it.

Ash.J.Williams · 27-02-2022 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702087#Comment_118702087

A NATO country has not been attacked?

ancapailldorcha · 27-02-2022 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702093#Comment_118702093

Lose the tone, please. This isn't remotely constructive.

lulublue22 · 27-02-2022 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702087#Comment_118702087

It’s all over sky news and the BBC ditto for CNN. Rte have a reporter in Liviv. Ukraine is not a member of NATO - NATO will not intervene with troops on the ground- NATO countries and US have been supplying aid - financial , military and humanitarian.

McGinniesta · 27-02-2022 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702103#Comment_118702103

Is it that simple? If you're not a member then you're on your own, so to speak?

lulublue22 · 27-02-2022 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702093#Comment_118702093

I have tried I can’t find it anywhere - if you could post a link that would be great. Tks I don’t expect you to know what the ambassador thinks - this is a discussion form you posted a statement that the Ukrainian ambassador called Germany out for doing too little to late. I have been following this situation for 2 months or so - I’m particularly interested in the Ukrainian use of diplomacy - even more so since the war started. You may remember that I disagreed with your assertion that Zelensky was a clown and was in fact playing a blinder. I was not only speaking about Zelensky but his entire government. Hence I would be interested to see if there is a change in policy / people going off script or if what he said has been misinterpreted.

Headshot · 27-02-2022 1:39pm

Wow what a huge demonstration in Berlin in support of Ukraine

People as far as the eyes can see

27-02-2022 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701989#Comment_118701989

I agree and especially re: some people lapping it up and exaggerating it. It is dangerous to completely erase it too, because when this is over, we (as in Ireland) still has to navigate a very dangerous world, one with neo-Nazis in it. And we (as in the West) are sending weapons to a country with an uncomfortable number of neo-Nazis in the ranks of its national guard and army. We need to be smart and think about the world after this war and Ireland's place in it and the risks and dagnerous ideologies that we will face.

I guess it simply comes down to the mundane personal fact that Neo-nazis scare the beejezus out of me. And 2.1% support in a nation of 40 million is too much. They received 15%+ support in some parts of Ukraine. We need to watch those boyos like hawks too.

27-02-2022 1:40pm

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1497895706568237056?t=AclQqyQoPbDs5ry_TH7sqg&s=19

Grain of salt required here. But I thought I'd post it.

Dempo1 · 27-02-2022 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702114#Comment_118702114

It doesn't appear to have been uploaded, I was watching it live this morning and the interview repeated a few times.

McGinniesta · 27-02-2022 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702108#Comment_118702108

I know it's on these channels. I've been watching it. That wasn't what I meant.

Has what has been reported been backed up by supporting footage? I certainly haven't seen much other than cctv and mobile phone recordings.

ancapailldorcha · 27-02-2022 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118701981#Comment_118701981

I've been to both Kyiv and Russia and I found Ukraine and its people to be much more pleasant. A liberal utopia they may not have been but I very much got the impression that Kyiv is a dynamic and modern city whose people were very keen on joining the EU instead of remaining shackled to the stultified Russian economy.

Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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