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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    How does one make an objective assertion regarding "degree of danger"? There is no applicable metric, nor a definition of World Rugby's interpretation of the term. It is literally a referee's subjective assessment of the situation.

    "They're either both reds, or neither are reds, and to try stand in the middle is to perform mental gymnastics."

    This is patently untrue. Not all contact with the head is equal, this is why step 3 of the process exists.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,839 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Here is the point of contact:

    To clarify, you believe this image shows Baird making contact with the Italian players chest, and not his face?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Shehal


    That video shows the point of contact from behind where you cant see the players chest...

    The first point of contact was a split second before that clip which shows in that there was no contact with the head, you have to look closely to notice it, if we showed more angles it would prove that the first point of contact was with the chest clearly for all to see.

    At most its a penalty and yellow but no way is it a red.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,535 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I think that GIF makes the situation look more dynamic and possibly forceful than it was. The way the camera moves and the other players in the shot moving by in the opposite direction makes it seem higher impact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,931 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Clearly the first significant impact is Baird's shoulder with the other guys face. Baird's shoulder is nowhere near the players chest. His upper arm may be but it was a dangerous head hit. As a retired lecturer in anatomy and physiology I can still recognise the difference between a chest and a head. The head is the bit at the top...where Baird collides at speed. Red card.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Can't say I've ever noticed him if I have. I've seen Ulster play a few times but can't remember Lowry.

    You don't even need to have seen him play to know he is too small to play full back at international level. Peter Stringer is taller than him.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Is there anything to be said for letting the game continue while the TMO does his forensic frame-by-frame analysis?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Shehal


    You should clean your glasses or look closely, quite clear the first point of contact is with the chest.

    People are look too much at Baird's shoulder and not his chest which makes the first point of contact directly on the Italian players chest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Baird dips and comes up into the contract. It may get to mitigation after that but the contact was clearly illegal and dangerous. You can start looking force and severity after to reduce it to a yellow but the tackle is very clearly a player driving upwards and making contact with the head.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭hold my beer


    And yet he did just play at full back in a 6 nations game i.e. international level. Lowry is quality, and you'd know that if you saw him week to week.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,999 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    That's what does happen?

    Like, the TMO reviews things while the game continues, and it's only when he/she decides that the referee needs to review something that the game gets interrupted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    You know well what I mean. Playing Italy isn't a challenge. You could play Furlong at fullback yesterday and the result wouldn't have changed.

    If we ever go into a competitive game v France or England or a good Welsh team with Lowry at fullback, they'll eat him alive.

    If you're looking to get to semi finals of WCs and win grand slams then having Lowry at fullback will not cut it. You might get away with it at club level.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Shehal


    Still waiting for Cheslin Kolbe, Damian McKenzie, Gabin Villere to be eaten alive.

    What would someone from a country that's never got to a semi final know about what's required to get to a semi final? There's no magic formula to getting to a semi final, if Michael Lowry is good at the basic's of his role then he's good enough to be our fullback.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Shehal


    We are judging this decision based on one poor angle from behind, the TMO have numerous angles that we dont have, they likely saw what I state that it was chest on chest and confirmed it with the ref meaning it was find to play on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,821 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    So you said you said you'd never seen him play. Then you said you might have seen him play but you hadn't noticed him. Now he's not good enough for international rugby.

    If you had have seen him play in any of the ERC games this year you would have seen him take high balls out of the sky all day. You'd also have seen him tear defences apart with his footwork. In fact if you had have watched him properly you'd also have noticed he very rarely misses his tackles.

    Maybe actually watch a player before you comment on them.

    Post edited by mfceiling on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,999 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I don't think Villiere is particularly small? I think McKenzie is not huge but still significantly bigger than Lowry. And Kolbe is just a freak of nature, he's the exception that proves all rules tbh.

    Like, I love watching Lowry but his size is absolutely a concern.

    Edit: Villiere is 5'11" apparently, that's four inches taller than Lowry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Shehal


    He is pretty small, not tiny but certainly not big. You know if he was Irish we'd be saying he's too small.

    See its when you start going like "except x, y & z" it show's that you're example is bullshit. McKenzie is a 40 cap All Black, Lowry only just got his first cap, he'll need time.

    His size isnt much of a concern if he's a good rugby player, that's more important.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,999 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    ?!! What gibberish is this?

    Kolbe is probably the most naturally gifted rugby player on the planet and is incredibly powerful for a man of his size. He is not a typical small guy. If Lowry turns out to be as good as Kolbe, I'll happily concede the point.

    Since the other two guys you mentioned are a good bit bigger than Lowry, they're not really relevant.

    Unfortunately, the reality is that for a 5'7" fullback, his size is a concern until he shows that it isn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Shehal


    McKenzie is 5'9

    Kolbe is 5'7

    They are similar sizes. If we were talking about a tight five player maybe I would agree with you but a fullback size isnt really that important if you have other good facets of you're game. Worrying about size is such an Irish thing to do, I look at the French media when they cover Ireland and the Irish provinces and they cant get enough of Michael Lowry and not once was his size mentioned, sort of show's the different mindset of the two countries.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    And then we have 5 minutes of debate with the game stopped. The whole idea of who is actually making the decisions is farcical as it stands.

    The TMO will see something and then try persuade the ref to agree with them. Just let the TMO decide straight up in that case.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Kolbe plays mostly on the wing. McKenzie is 5ft 9, an inch shorter than Keenan and 3 inches taller than Lowry.

    As I said, Peter Stringer is taller than Lowry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,579 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I doubt Farrell will be pleased with the play. I think we were fairly crap. There wasn't one stand out player. All in all, we achieved very little. For me, the fact that Porter didn't get a chance to scrum is a big factor! Sinckler will fancy his chances in 2 weeks time. This is a work on that needs serious attention.

    Once again, Baird did little of the basics to impress. Like Carberry, he is a "project" imo. I think he's luck enough to be involved. I can't see him pressing any of the starters. In fact, I would prefer if Ross Molony or Niall Murray were given a chance. As an athlete, Baird is freakishly good, but as a 2nd row.... he's lacking, imo.

    Carberry is a chameleon. He can be spectacular or clueless. He was poor! No guidance or direction from him. Against a 13 man side, he should have imposed himself and directed a very poor backline.

    This was a bad week for us as far as learning about some players. Catt will be incensed! We were shocking. Dreadful backline play from all. I would play Carberry against England. If anything, we would learn more about him. It won't happen, bar injury for Sexton and it wouldn't be popular, but it would give us a sense of where we are.

    I believe Carberry will be overtaken at Munster by Healy. I rate Healy as a 10 and not a footballer. A new head coach at Munster may elevate Healy fairly soon. But. Ireland have placed a lot of hope with Carberry and they must show him some faith?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Where are you getting these stats? Keenan's seems well off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Shehal


    2 inches taller actually. Stringer and Lowry are both 1,70m. You really arent making sense with any of this, how exactly does his size hurt him when ive listed numerous players who were fine despite this?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Gio Aplon is about the same size as Lowry I reckon. A lot of people reckoned he was too small for test rugby but he managed 17 caps, 5 tries (2 against France) and is still playing at 37.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Keenan is 6'1", not 5'10", so McKenzie is 4 inches shorter, not 1 inch shorter.

    Shane Williams and Cheslin Kolbe would be similar in stature to Michael Lowry.

    There is definitely room in the modern game for a smaller player, harder to tackle, and whippet fast.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,608 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Size didn't stop gio aplon getting 17 test caps at full back for the boks, or Jason Robinson getting over 50 caps for england



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands



    Yeah I got Keenans wrong. I'm saying he's too small for fullback at the highest level. If we started Lowry at fullback at Twickenham, you don't think England would target his size?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    It's could be a weakness, but also offers a strength. You could devise a defensive strategy where wingers cover the high balls etc, I think Lowe did a bit of that yesterday.

    It all depends on how the team are set up to attack and defend, if you create a lot of opportunities then Lowry is a weapon to exploit them, but if it's all slow and no creativity then better off with a different fullback.

    Could always experiment with Lowry on the wing too.



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  • Administrators Posts: 53,839 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Lowry's size is definitely a concern, there's no getting around the fact he's small.

    On the other hand, I would argue that there are players in the Ireland squad who are weaker defenders than Lowry.



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