Russia - threadbanned users in OP

They’re the types that sicken me the most- happy to leach off the opportunities and amenities of a democracy but still cheer lead the dictator in Moscow (that they chose not to live under).

Russia is a state like any other, there is no reason to think it’s ‘concerns’ about its sovereign neighbours or the expansion of NATO gives them a pretext for a new era of imperialism. They are no more entitled to act on real or imagined concerns with military force than Belgium or Botswana.

There’s an awful stench around here from the idea that Russia is some form of legitimate counterweight to US and EU power. It’s just a large banana republic and a rogue state.

Poland and NATO head Jens Stoltenberg just clarified that there will be no deliveries of arms by Poland into Ukraine, same for planes.

Its up to Ukrainians to move them over the border, NATO members will not.

I have to say there is alot of denialism in the Irish Greens though. We need energy from somewhere. We need to dispose of waste. For example I recall the Green Party overruling the Dublin City council & blocking Dublin's waste incinerator getting built for many years while they had a ministerial seat and ability to do so but they didn't seem to have other answers or solutions for what should be done with the waste, they just didn't like it and didn't want Dublin burning it (the fact it was to be located in a minister's constituency afair may have also had something to do with it).

Yes, they are perfectly right about the dire need to "decarbonise" the economy but the Irish Green party anyway really doesn't seem to get that we will still need energy from somewhere, the technology to get it all from renewable sources is not there yet, and we will also need to do "dirty" stuff like get rid of waste. We can't go back to the paleolithic now and dispense with modern energy hungry society, the road only runs one way.

The Russians are going to use thermobaric weapons. That's when the real horror starts. But yes, there are evil people in all these camps, nato, America, Russia. It is more complex than 'goodies and baddies'. I've been saying so in this thread. The uber plan is more complex than most people are willing to believe. But Putin is a pure bad ass.

I know that visually Putin is starting to look more and more isolated, the long tables, ministers across the room etc. But as they leave the room are all his Generals and ministers chatting and saying 'This is a great idea, the way forward' or are his war cabinet thinking 'this is a really bad move'.

Is there any possibility of a mutiny in the higher orders of Putin's regime?

Even they have given up that pretext. Especially as Ukraine didn't seem to be about to be joining nato and they have just brought a lot of nato weaponry very close to their doorstep with this invasion.

More about the nazi excuse these days from what I can see.

They haven't given up the narrative about EU or Nato expansion. They're even more relevant now as a result of the invasion.

Of what value are moral judgements like this?

We have to deal with the world as it is, not how we would like it to be.

A well made point but loses kudos when you call me a communist (tankie reference) giving succor to fascism . somewhat a dichotomy , no?

But I'd love to have a rant at speakers corner.

But Overall I cant accept your argument

I've no interest in war but I'd rather know the truth than cheerlead what Skynews/BBC and our own intellectual behemoth that is Timmy Dooley are selling.

The truth is Ukraine isn't good and Russia isn't bad. They (the political and money elite) can be (and probably are) both **** and there is a lot more to this that we are seeing in the media. It is possible to not want to cheer either side ,be the anti war.

if my desire for truth upsets you , so be it.

@El_Duderino 09 made some good points above touching on similar.

I watched CNN and Sky yesterday and they had loads of commentators on is Putin mentally unstable?

I really don't think he is. There will be a lot of support in the Kremlin for keeping Ukraine out of NATO. Yes I know Putin is gone beyond justifying the NATO stance but the whole conflict is at the heart of Ukraine wanting to be an independent nation and make its own alliances.

Ide love to see Ukraine being able to join NATO after this but I cant see that happening now, well at least not for a very long time.

There is going to have to be some kind of negotiated settlement in order for Russia to have a get out. While for the people of Ukraine unfortunately the best they can really hope for now is to not end up another puppet state like Belarus.

I cant see Russia backing away from this without having certain assurances in place and they will forever hold Ukraine at gun point to make sure of this.

Violent attacks on a democratic state and war crimes going on as we speak. It’s such a quandary, I mean I put some soft plastic in the recycle bin a couple of years ago, who am I to judge Putin?

Get a grip on yourselves.