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Long Term Leasing to Council

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    #62
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    we can and will put a lien on their property, sufficient to cover the damage to other properties

    How are you putting a lien on their property? Is it a court ordered lien or what is the mechanism by which you can put a lien on it.

    I don't see how the owner can be responsible for expense caused by tenant damaging a gas line.

    My understanding is normally RTB can order landlord to pay compensation if they have not taken appropriate action but this can't happen when LL is the council.

    Also damaging a gas line to me is more than just antisocial behavior that the LL has failed to deal with, to me that more covers making noise litter in the front garden that kind of thing. LL can't be responsible for all a tenants actions.


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    #63
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    How are you putting a lien on their property? Is it a court ordered lien or what is the mechanism by which you can put a lien on it.

    I don't see how the owner can be responsible for expense caused by tenant damaging a gas line.

    My understanding is normally RTB can order landlord to pay compensation if they have not taken appropriate action but this can't happen when LL is the council.

    Also damaging a gas line to me is more than just antisocial behavior that the LL has failed to deal with, to me that more covers making noise litter in the front garden that kind of thing. LL can't be responsible for all a tenants actions.


    I dont understand that at all either.


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    #64
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭DubCount


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I dont understand that at all either.

    I think what is being said is that the property owner has a head lease with the management company. This puts certain obligations on the owner. The management company may be in a position to claim damages from the property owner and create a lien on the property to ensure that liability is paid. There is nothing stopping the owner bringing a civil case against the tenant and/or the Local Authority. Thats not the concern of the management company - their contract (head lease) is with the owner.


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    #65
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    DubCount wrote: »
    I think what is being said is that the property owner has a head lease with the management company. This puts certain obligations on the owner. The management company may be in a position to claim damages from the property owner and create a lien on the property to ensure that liability is paid. There is nothing stopping the owner bringing a civil case against the tenant and/or the Local Authority. Thats not the concern of the management company - their contract (head lease) is with the owner.


    Dont see how they can claim damages from someone who has no control over those causing the damages though.
    Probably fro his solicitor to sort out though.


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    #66
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Dont see how they can claim damages from someone who has no control over those causing the damages though.

    This is it, at what point does the LL become responsible, if someone moves in and on first day is causing issues, that can't be LL's responsibility and so long as they take reasonable action they can't be responsible.
    Its blurry where the line is in terms of level of antisocial behavior and reasonable action, it could be debated long and hard.

    I'm curious about the lien though. Afaik a management company can take a lien on the basis of unpaid management fees but I can't see how they could take a lien for other things. Is that part of the lease the owner has with them? What else can they take a lien for? Does it have to be court ordered?


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    #67
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    This is it, at what point does the LL become responsible, if someone moves in and on first day is causing issues, that can't be LL's responsibility and so long as they take reasonable action they can't be responsible.
    Its blurry where the line is in terms of level of antisocial behavior and reasonable action, it could be debated long and hard.

    I'm curious about the lien though. Afaik a management company can take a lien on the basis of unpaid management fees but I can't see how they could take a lien for other things. Is that part of the lease the owner has with them? What else can they take a lien for? Does it have to be court ordered?


    Imagine the tenant robbed a bank and used the apartment as their base of operations for the robbery. The poor landlord would be screwed :)


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    #68
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭The Student


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    This is it, at what point does the LL become responsible, if someone moves in and on first day is causing issues, that can't be LL's responsibility and so long as they take reasonable action they can't be responsible.
    Its blurry where the line is in terms of level of antisocial behavior and reasonable action, it could be debated long and hard.

    I'm curious about the lien though. Afaik a management company can take a lien on the basis of unpaid management fees but I can't see how they could take a lien for other things. Is that part of the lease the owner has with them? What else can they take a lien for? Does it have to be court ordered?

    This is the how the rental system works in Ireland. The landlord can take all reasonable steps (look at the case of the landlord in Cork I think it was) where the District Court said the neighbours could sue the landlord for the actions of his tenants which were students.

    This judgement was overturned by the High Court last week as it was held the landlord took all reasonable precautions to mitigate the risk.

    A lien can be taken by anybody who wins a civil case and are awarded compensation. The Management company can take a civil case against the owner of the apartment for breach of contract between the owner and the management company.

    If the court finds in the management company's favour and makes an award which is not paid by the owner then the management company can place a lien (charge) on the folio of property which must be discharged once the property changes hand (either through sale or transfer). The Solicitor who undertakes the sale of property is legally required to discharge all charges from the proceeds of sale before releasing the remaining funds from the sale to the owner.


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    #69
    Gandalph
    Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭Gandalph


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Who gets to decide how much the rent will be after the 3 years review.
    Or is there some published figure that is used?

    The leases I have done are CPI linked every 3 years.


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    #70
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    From what our friend told us it is now linked to some EU table. Don't know what that is though.


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    #71
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    The Student wrote: »
    This is the how the rental system works in Ireland. The landlord can take all reasonable steps (look at the case of the landlord in Cork I think it was) where the District Court said the neighbours could sue the landlord for the actions of his tenants which were students.

    This judgement was overturned by the High Court last week as it was held the landlord took all reasonable precautions to mitigate the risk.

    A lien can be taken by anybody who wins a civil case and are awarded compensation. The Management company can take a civil case against the owner of the apartment for breach of contract between the owner and the management company.

    If the court finds in the management company's favour and makes an award which is not paid by the owner then the management company can place a lien (charge) on the folio of property which must be discharged once the property changes hand (either through sale or transfer). The Solicitor who undertakes the sale of property is legally required to discharge all charges from the proceeds of sale before releasing the remaining funds from the sale to the owner.


    So a management company would have to win a civil case against a property owner for a lien?
    Cant see anyone in their right mind holding a property owner responsible for something he can do nothing about. But I guess it did happen in Cork.


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    #72
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭The Student


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    So a management company would have to win a civil case against a property owner for a lien?
    Cant see anyone in their right mind holding a property owner responsible for something he can do nothing about. But I guess it did happen in Cork.

    Correct in terms of the civil case for breach of contract. The lien is the enforcement of the compensation order.

    The case in Cork was taken by the residents on the road the house was located. It was not an apartment complex.


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    #73
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Dont see how they can claim damages from someone who has no control over those causing the damages though.
    Probably fro his solicitor to sort out though.

    In our development the head leases we signed say that if we rent out we are responsible for ensuring that our tenants comply with development rules and do not affect other residents peaceful enjoyment of their homes.


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    #74
    LizardKing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭LizardKing


    Dublin City Council did a review of my agreed rents for the last while and found they gave me a better rate than supposed to. They used daft rates but were supposed to use Consumer Price Index (CPI)


    This error was corrected and they lowered my rent for the last couple of monts of the term. (rent is reviewed every 2 years) - Have little over 4 years left.


    I was so angry as I didn't think they could change the rent which was agreed and signed off on.


    I wanted to fight them but the legal costs and hassle may be too much.


    Will just see out the last few years and probs just sell the apartment then.

    Its changed my opinion on the whole leasing thing to be honest.



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    #75
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Ive spken to a few people now on the LTL. ITs worked out for one or two, but been a total disaster for most of them. They are all planning to sell as soon as their lease is up. Seems renting to the council is as bad as renting to any troublesome tenant.



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    #76
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,936 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118713785#Comment_118713785

    It's worse, because you don't get to vet the tenant at all.

    Councils are by design responsible for housing those who no one else will house. The % with problems will be higher than the general renting population.



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    #77
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/112090211#Comment_112090211

    I am aware that this is an old post from 2019, but I wonder about the mention of insulation. What insulation were you asked to add? There is no minimum insulation that I know of in the rental standards.



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