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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭gjim


    I think you are being overly skeptical (more than cynical). If you'd told me in 2010 that within ten years 42% of all electricity consumed in Ireland would come from renewables, I'd have told you to see a psychiatrist. Yet here we are.

    Yes you're right that the planning system is a big drag on the roll-out of renewables but that's a problem that can be fairly easily addressed - either by legislation (pending) or by properly resourcing the planning system so that cases can be evaluated in a timely manner.

    But the forces in the other direction are much stronger - the shift to wind and solar for electricity generation is now an unstoppable global juggernaut, driven not by politics or activism but by prices - i.e. plain old capitalism. So even an inefficient planning system cannot stop this process.

    Thermal generation (nuclear, fossil-fuels, biomass, etc.) hare doomed because prices for solar and wind have entered a virtuous cycle where more deployment globally causes increases in production which results in increased manufacturing efficiency which leads to lower prices, which leads to more deployment... and repeat.

    This cycle doesn't work for most other forms of electricity generation because of the unique aspect of solar PV and wind - they have almost zero operating cost and zero fuel costs. This means the cost of electricity from these sources is almost purely a function of the cost of mass-manufacturing their components. We know how mass production disrupted everything from horse-transport to computers and now it's doing the same for electricity generation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    What has wind delivered for Germany apart from sky high energy bills and an increasing dependence on Russian Gas??



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Mealy mouthed self serving Guff, Just more BS from WEI to justify their developer led agenda of gouging energy consumers



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,710 ✭✭✭Birdnuts




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The price of electricity is up because the price of all fossil fuels, which yes includes Gas are all way up.

    If it wasn't for the wind energy they use, those bills would be even higher as they would be using even more fossil fuels.

    I find it hilarious that people are trying to pin the massive increase in fuel prices on renewables, it is insane!

    BTW Germany only used gas for 12% of it's electricity generation last year. The problem they face with gas it that they use it for home heating, not so much for electricity.

    The solution for them will be to electrify home heating (heat pumps, etc.) and to go all in on renewables , to become independent of those fossil fuels.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Excellent Podcast on the impacts this crisis will have on the future of energy markets:

    Highlights for those who don't want to listen:

    • This is the biggest crisis to the energy market since the Oil crisis in the 70's, perhaps even bigger and more impact-full
    • There will be both short term and long term consequences
    • Short term, coal plants and Nuclear plants will likely be run longer then planned and more then planned and thus more emissions
    • We will be paying more for electricity in the short term
    • Long term, fossil fuels are done and or dependence on Russia is done. We will rush to new technologies including renewables, storage, etc.
    • They seem to be saying short term is the next 3 years or so, long term 5 years from now we will be well on our way to the new technologies.
    • Interestingly they seem to be saying that the problems largely aren't technical, rather regulatory and pricing incentives. They say the biggest changes will come from switching these regulatory pricing of electricity.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Putins blunder really has just sped up the plans for transition away from fossil fuels.

    Whatever about cost, its now focused minds on the fact that if you can't control your own energy, you are in a very weak position, especially when it comes to the behavior of those who do control your energy.

    I think its safe to say that not only will all the 2030 targets be met, they're likely to be well exceeded by European nations



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,197 ✭✭✭crisco10



    Or equally, maybe the increase in bills has been mitigated to a degree by the 53% Wind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Coal futures are spiking massively over the last few days

    European gas prices to top $2k

    You'd hope our government will re-think the ban on exploration licenses off Irish coast



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Honestly, its more likely that they would put massive resources into the full overhaul of the regulatory framework (already underway but very slow progress), foreshore licensing (also underway but again, slow AF) and planning system as it would be far easier to do that to allow off shore wind to rapidly deploy as the potential long term markets for green hydrogen are quick becoming medium term markets as economies around Europe are looking at cutting off their Russian oil & gas consumption



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Iran will kick back in as a supplier, Saudis will up production, Russia only provide 8% of the world's oil, gas demand will drop as the weather gets milder, expect crude prices to normalise by June/July,



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I've no idea what that is supposed to mean! But my first computer was a Sinclair ZX Spectrum, I miss that, was very cool!

    "Iran will kick back in as a supplier, Saudis will up production, Russia only provide 8% of the world's oil, gas demand will drop as the weather gets milder, expect crude prices to normalise by June/July,"

    The problem for gas will be what happens next winter. Plus gas prices might not drop as much as normal during the summer if Europe tries to fill gas storage reserves ahead of next winter.

    Gas futures for April are up by a factor of 8 versus April 2021!



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    We dont have any infrastructure suitable for using hydrogen in place of gas. All pipelines, domestic facilities etc would need replaced.

    Securing our NG supply makes far more sense - at least with gas you know where you stand, hydrogen and other potential dispatchable technologies are still unknowns.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Do you think Iran will be allowed sell back into the western markets? Their nuclear programs are still "threatening" the security of the Israelis, who may stomp their feet and demand Iranians still remain under sanction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    There's quite a few news stories the last few days stating a nuclear deal is close and that Iran could supply 1-1.5million barrells a day



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Grand, but what do we use for home heating instead?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "How do they compare to18/19? Covid years are an anomaly"

    Much the same, 2020 was the lowest point, prices had recovered to the norm by April 2021.

    Gas prices had been pretty flat over the last 5 years, in or around the €20/MWh mark. Futures had spiked up to €193/MWh in December and bobbing around €116 at the moment. Looking at the 5 year graph definitely isn't a pretty picture.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "We dont have any infrastructure suitable for using hydrogen in place of gas. All pipelines, domestic facilities etc would need replaced."

    Hydrogen is most likely to be used as storage for electricity generation and ammonia, etc.

    Realistically I suspect we will need to electrify our heating, that means heat pumps. Also district hot water systems where possible and CHP.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Really wish we could keep this as a state industry instead of a private company coming in and making lots of profit after offsetting startup costs against payment of tax.

    Green hydrogen has massive potential if we really push offshore wind.

    There will be a massive demand for it in the future.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    What's unknown apart from how much hydrogen production costs will fall due to economies of scale ?


    The gas mains already had to change from hydrogen rich coal gas to natural gas. https://www.rte.ie/archives/2018/1024/1006374-dublin-gasometer-to-be-demolished/

    There's also Bio-Methane or you could use energy to fuel techniques so you don't need to go 100% hydrogen for a while yet. It can be phased in.

    Thermal plant gets replaced every generation or so, with huge jumps in efficiency over previous ones, so the money is going be spent either way and renewables offer a way to sidestep fuel costs entirely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭gjim



    Good question - I don't have a short/simple answer to it to. There isn't an immediately available drop-in replacement for burning NG or oil for home heating available today which can compete on price while providing the same convenience.

    For cooking, the answer is simple - electric induction is clearly the future and although is a small bit more expensive to run, it's a price worth paying for the superior performance in every way and if you don't fancy adding considerable NOx to the air in your home.

    While heating is trickier, home heating "revolutions" happen quicker than you'd think. I'm old enough to remember living in a house where burning coal and/or turf/briquettes provided nearly all the heating and hot water with most of the rest of the country doing the same. NG dominates German home heating because it was the best available option for many to replace coal which effectively got displaced quickly within a decade by NG back in the 1980s. In Ireland, because of the more sprawling housing, we went more for oil than NG and it took longer for coal to lose its top position.

    Medium to long term, I believe that the answer will be electricity. Even today, night rate prices are not that far away per kWh of heating (about 10c according to the SAEI) from the cost of gas (about 6c) or oil (about 8c).

    Consider the sums - using roughish estimates, an average house might require (ballpark) 15,000 kWh per year of heat. About 1200 euro per year for oil say. Using night-rate electricity this would cost about 1,500 euro - not outrageously more expensive (assuming you're already paying the 250 standing charges for night-time laundry or car charging).

    If a true hourly variable rate/demand price tariff were available to households, then you could buy the electrical energy for even less. This is surely coming, despite the UK making a mess of it, as more and more intermittents are added to the grid.

    Unfortunately, this would only be one part of the solution. The big problem remains that the times when electricity is cheap may not line up with when you actually want to add heat to your home. On the other hand, storing heat is not rocket-science. For modern under-floor heating, the floor mass itself acts as a kind of thermal storage. In older houses, a bunch of companies are selling dedicated thermal stores are available. I was given a "tour" of such a system last year in the house of a friend's in France - it looked fairly complicated but at its core it wasn't not much more complex than a well insulated but massive closed hot water tank - and plumbing to exchange the heat between the tank and the central heating circuit and hot water circuit.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,675 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: @ Birdnut - Cut the trolling. Post deleted - further trolling will result in cards.

    Post edited by Sam Russell on


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    The big problem remains that the times when electricity is cheap may not line up with when you actually want to add heat to your home. - Insulation and allowing more leeway on thermostats means you don't need heat immediately, you can wait a wee while until it's cheaper. Though that relies on better smart meter tariffs.

    And the more insulation you have the less energy you need and the longer you can wait to buy it. It would be nice to know how long it takes for your house to drop to half the difference between inside and outside temps, or other similar single figure of merit, or KWh per degree difference to keep a steady temperature.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Electrifying heating is a mostly a pipe dream. There are insufficent numbers of people with the finacial resources to pay for it and this country is so ludicrously indebted already it would be stupid to increase grants. Also, it's unlikely there are enough workers in the necessary trades to even do the work. There is a significant shortage in building trades already such that the sector can barely make a dent on building sufficient houses to meet current housing demand, let alone what Putin looks set to add to the base demand.

    If you carbon tax the bejesus out of traditional fossil fuels to provide 'incentive' for people to upgrade their homes to make heat pumps workable, you will simply impoverish many of them as they already don't have sufficient financial resources to be able to afford to retrofit, subsidies or not.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    If you are comparing a gas boiler versus a heat pump, you also need to take into account their efficiency.

    The best gas boilers are about 95% efficient, while heat pumps are roughly 300 to 400% efficient.

    So a KWh of gas will give you slightly less then a KWh of heat, but a KWh of electricity will give you 3 to 4 times as much heat.

    So even if gas is 6c KW/h and Electricity was 18c KW/h your heating bill would end up roughly the same if you switched to a x3 heat pump.

    If gas continues to rise and if we can move electricity over to more renewables and disconnect it from the price of gas, it will quickly flip that it is cheaper to use a heat pump all day (not just off peak) and even if your house isn't highly insulated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,904 ✭✭✭✭josip


    You also need to take into account if you're replacing an existing, working home heating system.

    In that case you also have to include the cost of the heat exchanger, bigger rads and probably increased insulation+MHRV in the calculations.

    Gas will have to increase an awful lot before you would ever break even on a swap out scenario.

    What's the expected lifespan of a heat exchanger? Do the Heat exchanger guys require you to take out an annual servicing contract?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, obviously there is the upfront cost of the system. Though gas boilers have an average lifespan of 10 years, so either way they need replacing eventually.

    One advantage of heat pumps is that on average they last significantly longer 15 years+

    You mention increased insulation + MHVR costs. But the point is, if the cost of gas increases, that isn't actually needed, heat pumps become competitive even without good insulation.

    Of course improving your insulation is always good, even if you use coal/oil/gas/heat pumps.

    People talk about heat pumps needing good insulation, only because of how cheap gas was. Only lots of insulation + heat pump could compete with cheap gas. However if gas prices end up remaining high long term, then this equation flips and heat pumps on their own, without great insulation, would be competitive with expensive oil/gas.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,675 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell



    Agree with most of that but insulation and ventilation control is the most important. If a building gets its BER level up to B3, or higher, then a heat pump can work well. A BER of D or less should be brought up as far as funds permit.

    The efficiency of a heat pump depends on the difference between the hot end and the cold end. The smaller the difference, then the greater the conversion of input power and heat transfer. It is for this reason that underfloor heating is preferred where the water temperature can be quite low compared with conventional radiator systems. It is also why larger radiators are needed for heat pump systems that use radiators.

    A good investment would be an intelligent controller that meters heat into the building taking account of the internal and external temperatures, the weather forecast, the cost of energy, and the heating properties of the building.

    A woolly jumper could also be a good investment.



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