Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

What is Poland up to?

Options
13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    That is what Constitutional Tribunal consists of now...



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,053 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    My sympathies to Poland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    43.6% in a proportional system is extremely unhealthy figure. How is it possible?

    Czechia has had a very similar system as Poland (until this year's election when D'Hondt was removed finally) and since 1989, no single party has ever got more than 30% in general election.

    It would be similar in other continental European countries using PR, very unlikely for any party get significantly more than 35%.

    Something is terribly wrong in Poland, I think.

    Remember, Hitler got just 33% in a PR system in 1933 election.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    Well, when you have a propaganda all the time in favour of ruling party on national TV (and lies about opposition), so you have results.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I don't mean to sound like I'm defending PiS but Fianna Fail got 41.6% here as recently as the 2007 general election.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    In 2015 PiS got even less 37,6% but propaganda and giving away hard earned money by previous governments did the job. It is sad because PO ruled just after world crisis and such awful people like PiS always get in power to just spend it. The same will be now. They will very likely lose in 2023 (if our courts survive) and again good people will have to do all the economical recovery to again lose it to populists. Because recovery means tough times and sacrifices and public don't like it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Not good... Very unhealthy and shows a deep polarisation.

    As I see it, from the Czech perspective, these two countries are politically completely different.

    1. The Church or religion plays no role in Czech politics (or society even). Czech politics epicentre is generally centre or maybe slightly centre-left.

    2. Czech politics was going somewhat into a pre-Orbanism direction for last 7 years or so but thanks to the strong Czech constitution, which puts very good checks and balances in place, Orbán scenario is not possible. Constitution changes need a 3/5 majority (60%) in both houses which no single party can ever get, the Senate is very difficult to capture by populists due to the voting system used, Constitutional Court is very independent and the Executive cannot hijack it easily or quickly. The president (not the Government) appoints the Constitutional Court Justices and they have a long mandate so hijacking by Government is very difficult, they would need to team up with the President and for a very long time.

    The whole bundling of Czechia with Poland and Hungary by political commentators was always a tad incorrect due to lack of contextual knowledge. There are more parallels with Austria and Slovakia, in fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Interesting and unusual in democratic PR countries. It's an anomaly.

    FF is a "Big Tent" though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Interesting, so the D'Hondt gave them maybe say 45% mandates, but then where did they get the majority from? A smaller coalition partner? Some sort of similar clero-fascist hardliner party? 😎



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,130 ✭✭✭Did you smash it


    Dana must curse being born in Ireland. She could have being PM in Poland.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    No D'Hondt gave them 51% of seats first time. It was "Tapegate" just before election. PO was secretly recorded while dining in restaurant. They were pretty innocent conversations in comparison with PiS doings.

    So PO lost. And really unfortunately in the same year there was presidential election as well less then 3 months apart, which PiS wasn't expecting to win. But they won both, so they could do a lot of changes especially in our Constitutional Tribunal and Courts. That's why we are where we are with only independent Courts giving us a chance for restoring democracy in Poland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Maybe this thread should be re-titled "What is Belarus up to?" I know this is a bit of a diversion, but just remember what a really nasty regime is like.

    Totally agree on the concern about independent courts, by the way.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,704 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    More like 'What is Putin up to?'

    Belarus is up to no good as Putin's behest. There are Russian/Belarus military exercises going on on the Polish border at the moment, while Belarus moves refugees from Turkey to the Belarus/Polish border and refusing them the ability to return.

    I hope a shooting war does not start there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Strange system, how can 38% give 51% mandates? That's almost like the FPTP in the UK where this result +-40% votes guarantees an absolute majority.

    Is Poland effectively moving into a two-party system?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,704 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    It was a sum of very unfortunate events in 2015. In an electoral debate one guy (Zandberg) from smaller left wing party was so good that took many voters from main left wing party, so they didn't managed to get through threshold just by half percent. So 12% of votes altogether (both parties didn't get through) were wasted in that way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    What's the threshold to get into Sejm?

    And what was the turnout?

    Would higher turnout help the democratic opposition?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    The problem was with left wing. A young party didn't want to go with old communists, who were still members of old bigger left wing party. The bigger left party (SLD) consisted of few smaller parties, so threshold for them was 8% (for individual party is 5%). And Zandberg took like 2% of votes so SLD got only 7,5% instead of 9,5%. While these 2% was not enough for this young party to get through. They got 3,9%. Really unlucky. And all these lost votes were then given to winners, so PiS.

    Turnout was much smaller then, 51%.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Is there no centrist party? I hear left-wing and right-wing.

    PiS are described as "ultra-conservative" and "right-wing" but I think that's incorrect and due to the obsolete left-right dychotomy. They're totally left - free public services, freebies from the public money, reduced pension age, higher taxes, significant government interventions to the free market...

    If you look at their economic policies, they're interventionist, statist, you could say socialist aka "left". As I see it, PiS are essentially socially conservative (backward?) national socialist party (square that for me), i.e. left-wing party, there's nothing "right" about them, at least from economic point of view, which traditionally is hat left-right division meant.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭paul71


    They won't start a shooting war on The Polish or Lithuanian border but they might elsewhere. PiS are no friends of Russia, but their antics are quite a useful tool for Putin. A Polish government flouting EU rules and playing games in loading the courts is at odds with the EU, so Putin can stir the pot by using his rabid but idiot dog in Belarus to manufacture a humanitarian crisis on an EU border, involving an EU member state at odds with the rest of the EU. In the meantime he sends 100,000 soldiers to his Ukrainian border.


    Doesn't take a great deal of perception to see what is happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Very good analysis. I agree.

    Russian (Kremlin) propaganda is successfully leveraging Polish, Hungarian and British situation to further disrupt the EU.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭paul71




  • Registered Users Posts: 20,053 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Re the the thread title: Being absolute legends.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Nothing like an outside threat to create unity



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    Yes, Poland has really stepped up. Hungary still looks pro russian though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,053 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Orban has probably apologised to Putin about the measures he's had to take because of the election and begged for his understanding, promising normal programming will resume after He's won the election.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭Economics101


    The Polish people are overwhelmingly very anti-Russian, for good historical reasons. If PiS were to cosy up to Putin, it would be disastrous for them at the next election. You can see this from the way the Polish people have responded to the new refugee crisis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    I'm still wondering if they are tempted to send their army in themselves. Opt out of NATO tomorrow and cross the border.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    Why Poland would be that stupid?



Advertisement