Is it time to join Nato

No I asked a fairly simple question as you repeat RT and Putin talking points again and again on boards.ie

So for about the 10th time of asking, what have NATO 'engaged' in? Do they have an 'end-goal'?

These are fairly simple questions that warrant asking.

We in Ireland live very charmed lives. By an accident of geography we are positioned on the periphery of Europe next to a (relatively) friendly neighbour. Strategically, there's not much to be gained from targeting us. Realistically there is nobody that wants to (or would feel the need to) invade us.

However, there's a number of points that the sad events of the last week have raised:

1. If attacked, any non aligned country is on their own. You cannot expect other nations to fight your battles. The often repeated Irish "expectation" that the EU, the US or the UK will intervene and bleed on our behalf needs to end now.

2. Any nation worth its salt, needs to be able to stage a credible defence/resistance to be regarded as a nation deserving of its independence. Unlike what some on Boards often declare, nobody expects Ireland to defeat any country in battle (let alone a superpower). But it is expected that we at least stage a cohesive defence of our sovereign territory even if that is ultimately futile. Nobody expects Cyprus to defeat the Turkish army if they suddenly decide to annex the rest of that island. They do however expect them to at least take the field of battle and say they tried to give them a bloody nose.

Likewise, the oft repeated mantra of "sure the RAF will protect out skys" is BS. The UK has it's own strategic interests. Brexit (and history) should have taught us by now that these interests may differ drastically (if not be completely contrary) to what our own interests are as a nation.

Ultimately I would not agree with Ireland joining NATO. It is unnecessary and I am not comfortable with the possibility of being drawn into conflicts that do not directly concern us. But that is a luxury we are afforded due to our location on the globe, nothing more. We do however, need to drop the whole "sure the world loves us" spiel, and take steps to ensure our owm security, as the recent HSE hack showed.

It's not Nato you want to be overly concerned about. Ireland needs to save its pennies for a while and then get some nukes.

Just a handful of them, at the ready and pointed at the bully boys of the world.

They'll think twice about fecking with us then.

The world is full of nuclear weapons, and always will be. So if you cant beat them join them.

The British would still look to patrol the skies over Ireland because of fears of attack from the west. Their actions on the world stage make them a target, let them at it.

Irish troops also served in Afghanistan.

I would have no issue allowing the British overflight to protect themselves, as long as they didn't abuse the permission.

Afaik, not all members of NATO sent combat troops. But you get the point, semantics aside joining NATO is not the doom some people make it out to be.

It's also completely unnecessary.

I would be in favour of increasing our military co-operation and increasing military spending. How about cut 50,000 useless public and civil servants (HSE?) and cutback on social spending and then increase our military spending and increase troop numbers to 30,000 minimum. There should be compulsory military service and firearms training for all citizens, look at Finland. Have a few fight jets, anti aircraft rockets and the ability to deploy 50% of our military overseas at short notice.

We need to build up our military forces because after Irish reunification we can be almost certain that the day will come when we will have wage a defensive war in Northern Ireland as after a United Ireland referendum passes (demographic certainty) we will have to roll troops and peacekeepers in immediately and quell the Unionist rebellions to prevent Civil war in NI.

If we look back at History Irish Neutrality in World War II was the yet another one of the great disgraces De Valera and Fianna Fail hoisted on the nation, if ever there was a justified and moral war it was the battle against Hitler. If we had a Government with integrity at the time we would have openly declared war on Germany and Japan after Pearl Harbour in unity with the United States not the British Empire allowing them to save face also. Our participation would have saved countless allied lives in the battle of the Atlantic, allowed for the defeat of Hitler earlier and seen D-Day take place sooner holding back the Soviets from conquering such large swathes of land in Eastern Europe as the Allies would have arrived sooner. It would have given Ireland access to Marshall Aid after and seen large parts of Dublin and Limerick destroyed (no harm there) and rebuilt (properly) and alot of our current day problems like infrastructure and housing would not exist. Churchill had promised a United Ireland had we joined and if we did the Northern Unionists would not be as sceptical either and I believe it would have happened.

As far as defence policies go, "someone else will help" isn't the most convincing one. Why would anyone help a country that doesn't want to defend itself, even though it could afford to do so?

Leo seeking to blame '70 years of the public thinking somebody (the UK or the US) was coming to help us' for the hollowing out of our defence forces and the state they are in was peak power swap politics.

The defence force are in the state they are in due to neglect and lack of funding, there have been enough calls and demands on this.

Peacekeeping forces are needed too. That are not aligned to NATO or any military alliance. That is a huge offering to the world.

Which has what to do with the Defence Forces?

The government jet is a part of the Irish Air Corps. Can you imagine the reaction from the usual crowd if say the government went off to buy jet fighters or some more boats to patrol our waters?

I think the problem with NATO is that its leading members (US & UK) are far too militaristic. Putin's propaganda is that NATO is a front for US & UK imperialism. I listened to a Ukrainian yesterday explain that the Ukraine disarmed because the US & UK promised that they would protect them. Where is the US & UK now when they need them. Putin's real fear is EU enlargement, but he can't use that as propaganda or as a reason to invade Ukraine.

Ireland would be nuts to join NATO. We would be a sitting target and a launching pad to attack both US & UK from Atlantic. The UK always wanted to hold onto Ireland and Scotland for strategic reasons as we are a natural protection barrier for them.

Leo would disagree with you about Ireland's part in WWII. He recokons that it was Dev's greatest achievement keeping Ireland out of the war.

Over a 1000 people died in the bombing of Belfast - the biggest loss of life in a German air raid in UK. The British didn't even bother to launch a defence and it was the south that mainly came to their aid. How do you think Ireland would have defended itself against the Luftwaffe or the German navy?

eh?

If one of two arms of our state say no, then it doesn't happen regardless of what the UN say. Not the same say at all mark. Sorry.

What?

Yes, absolutely. The defence forces have been crying out for years for proper funding to do the job they should be doing.

Joining a military alliance brings us into a different realm though. Rather than being defence forces the would become an offence force. And we as a people do not want to do that.

By all means properly fund our defence force though.

Have you thought this through Mark.

That would mean our government (whosoever it is) could send our troops anywhere. We could send them into the north if required for instance...or to Venezuela.

Given your previous views, I can be confident that you haven't given this a second's thought other than using it trying to rile people.

As a world umbrella group the UN is the best we have despite it's flaws.