Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Terrible idea. Many left because they hate Putin. We should encourage more of them to come over here and cause a full on brain drain.

Maybe they left because they hate Putin, more likely they left for the opportunity for a better life in a civilised part of the world. According to this site, there are over 6m Russians living in Europe (2m+ in Northern, Western and Southern Europe with a further 4m in Eastern Europe). Exclude those in Eastern Europe since many will have been born exactly where they currently live and maps have changed since and allowing for the fact that number no doubt includes a large number of Ukrainians and you have 2m. Say half that again to allow for those who've acquired citizenship in an EU country through marriage etc and who are happy to give up (or already have given up) their Russian citizenship and you'd have 1m odd Russians who should no longer be welcome in our world.

Send 1m people across the borders in Estonia and Latvia and now Putin has a humanitarian crisis on his own hands to deal with that would be on a par with that which he's inflicted on the EU with his invasion of Ukraine. A perfectly proportional response and one which might not only distract from the Russian war effort but also sow further dissent amongst the Russian population.

The problem with that is it could easily be seen as NATO intervention and escalation.

At the moment Russia appears to tolerate the current level of support being given to Ukraine.

Supplying modern systems not yet used by Ukraine may well be a tipping point.

The lower house of the Russian Parliament has passed a law criminalizing the spreading of false information discrediting the Russian military and any calls for sanctions against Russia. Those charged with breaking the new law could face fines of 1.5 million rubles(€12,300), prison sentences of up to 15 years or up to 5 years in labour camps. You're not allowed call what's going on in Ukraine as war or an invasion. 🙄

Edit: Well Russian journalists, citizens and foreign journalists in Russia are not.

western union doesn’t list Russia as a banned country.

Russia is a country that is seriously going rogue and we have yet to see what depths of depravity they are capable of at the moment it is disturbingly going in one direction.

In my place of work I am rubbing shoulders with a Russian guy who has pro Putin rhetoric on his Facebook page

Isn't it fascinating.....scary at the same time.

I never realised until I got older how few people have the mental resources/capacity/extra space/maybe just the will... to think about most things objectively/beyond a surface level.

It's not all about intelligence levels either.....some very intelligent/successful people can have quite glaring holes in their ability to analyse things.....they can be a genius at a narrow specialism and a complete gullible moron that would fall for an utterly a ridiculous conspiracy theory/scam etc etc

My parents believe most of what they hear on Joe Duffy from the craziest of guests sometimes even with opposing viewpoints that contradict with only a day or two elapsed between shows.....they are elderly but ain't stupid....try to criticise Joe and point out that the point is to bring on a certain % of loopers to drive listenership and you'll get met with "he's doing great work" 😄.....they simply can't grasp he's playing a game may have an agenda himself etc etc

If a lot of people weren't this way there wouldn't be dictators and I suspect democracy would function a lot differently too.....they can be manipulated as a collective.

You are correct in my view.

Saying that because Ukraine is not in NATO, and therefore cannot be defended by said Alliance, is one thing. But we cannot simply give Putin everything he wants, every time, every where - in case he 'nukes us' - a line will need to be drawn

As i stated over in the thread on possible Ukrainian capitulation - At some point, someone, is going to have to sit down with Putin. And a map. He will need to be shown where his border is. And be given a sufficient time to get on the correct side of it. It has to happen eventually. He cannot be allowed to hold the world hostage, on the threat of nuclear war

IMHO

We learned the definition of a pyrrich victory when i was young, i think it might be spelled putin for the next generation.

With Regret - while it is vital to target individual oligarchs, Putin, and members of his inner circle - the bulk of the sanctions should be on state assets, the Russian financial services sector, and industry/commerce. I know some will cry out that this will harm ordinary Russian citizens. And yes, it will hurt them financially

I sympathize - but with the news of Ukrainian civilians fighting and dying - hurting Russian civilians financially, can be considered 'collateral damage' - i dont know how else to put it. The west will not intervene militarily. They will not 'hurt or kill russians soldiers' (and we know why) - financially hurting Russians is all they can do

There is also the hope (faint as it may be) that this 'hurt' will hinder the war effort, and swing at least some in the general populace

oh no i completely agree. It will be tough. Deciding when to do it, In what context, and where the line should be. Genuinely, 'Summitry' not to coin a phrase, can backfire badly, or it can have genuine positive effects. But in my view, at some point, a summit will need to be held.

Putin is in the process of consuming an independent democratic state. His rewriting of history is staggering. And we can draw conclusions that no where in the region is safe. At some point the west will have to draw a line. Whether its done publicly (Biden-Putin) or privately (Clandestine meeting in places unknown) - it will happen. plenty of precedents.

The alternative is: Any state actor which has Nuclear weapons - can do anything it likes. And no one will intervene, in order to avoid risking a nuclear exchange. THIS possibility, would be a disaster for the world in general, and for the following in particular, in no particular order (to name but a few)

• Finland
• Moldova
• Sweden
• Taiwan
• South Korea
• et al

So yes, in my view, the conversation will need to be had. and red lines will need to be drawn

i should also say - getting Putin out of power - by any means - would be preferred OF COURSE - and it is the best outcome we can hope for - i just dont know if it can happen

I said nothing of internment, you don't need internment camps to deport the citizens of a hostile nation state you simply revoke their visas and put them on a train/plane to the border.