Can You Combine Programmes?

Cill94 · 01-03-2022 7:58pm #1

If you've come across some of the popular lifting programmes online, the thought may have crossed your mind to try combining two or more of them. Perhaps you think this could give you the best of both worlds.

It's been my experience that this is dead wrong. Here's why.

Systems Matters

Most great programmes are successful because they devise a system of training that obey the principles of training. What you may not know is that this does not mean that everything within the programme is necessary or optimal. What I mean by this is that knowing that a programme works, only allows us to be confident that the programme as a whole works - not the individual parts.

For example, Starting Strength is one of the most popular and successful programmes for beginners. However I don't think the inclusion of the power clean is crucial for this if we're looking at strength and hypetrophy goals. In fact, the argument could be made that it's a counterproductive exercise when we consider what else could be done with our time.

Another example is 'dynamic effort work' in Westside. It works, but likely because it provides balance to the super heavy work of the max effort day in the programme. Without a max effort day, this is far too light and non specific.

What I'm getting at here is that if you took the power cleans from SS and the dynamic effort work from Westside, you'd have a terrible programme for developing strength and size. Yet both of these things are not major issues within their own programmes.

Competing Demands

Different programmes are devised for different goals. For example, Boring But Big has hypertrophy as the main goal. Trying to combine this with CrossFit workouts would be terrible because you'd be too fatigued to progress on your BBB lifting days.

Whereas if you were just following the 531 material alone, you would know that conditioning is recommended to be kept very moderate during high volume bodybuilding work (as you're already doing a lot of reps).

You Don't Know How to Programme (Yet)

Unless you're an experienced lifter, you probably don't know how to fine tune a programme in a way that won't mess with recovery, specificity or overload. This is a skillset that took me years of trial and error in the weight room and coaching others to develop.

What I suggest is that you select a programme that is relevant to your goals. You should then stick with that programme for as long as you can make gains on it (don't assume that hitting a plateau means that you're getting super advanced). This should allow you to understand what the key aspects of the programme are. Once you hit a true road block, you can begin experimenting with manipulating volume, intensity, exercise selection etc. After a while you might even be able to make your own programme.

Don't try to be so smart that you train like an eejit.

This was from my Free Newsletter

Bellie1 · 05-03-2022 11:46am

Very useful. Any advice for me. My ultimate aim is to build bone density , have been lifting consistently (and passionately) for 4 years now, getting older so starting to lose some strength. Have plateaud the past year. My goal now is to maintain as long as I can. I've read that for bone density,need to be be lifting 80% of 1rm but then for older lifters(am 52) need to lift lighter for joints. So am considering 531. Should I read the book or will I get away with reading articles and a template I've downloaded? Any version of 531 in particular that will allow me maximal strength gains but also allow enough recovery for joints? Boring but big is probably not the best for me as hypertrophy isn't my goal ?

Black Sheep · 05-03-2022 12:47pm

You could crack on with what you have but I would recommend you buy one of the 531 books too, as the online articles only really set out the broad strokes, it’s worth having one of the books.

Some of the info in the original T-nation 531 article is not stuff Wendler has said is ideal based on what he knows now. You get people writing about 531 and doing their own spin on it too.

Beyond 531 (Despite the name) is often the one of the books Wendler recommends to beginners … If not that one get 531 Forever.

If you’ve been lifting for four years an intermediate program like 531 is a fine choice.

I don’t know where exactly your numbers plateaued, or what your programming has been like, but even at 52 I would check to make sure you really are done before you think in terms of just maintaining.

Black Sheep · 05-03-2022 12:54pm

Just to Cilian’s original point:-

I did both SS, and later Conjugate for a few years.

Looking back on Conjugate I was so under recovered at the end of some weeks, don’t know what I was thinking.

The dynamic days are hard to get right. % too low or too high and they don’t work. Even having done it for a few years I am just not sure whether I could recommend a fairly classic conjugate set to to most people.

I think Joe De Franco’s WS4SB just with a ME upper, ME lower and hypertrophy upper day might make more sense for like 70% of people who are lifting recreationally or to get jacked.

Bellie1 · 05-03-2022 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736343#Comment_118736343

Beyond 531 is in ebook format so decision made ( Forever isn't). Was following a standard powerlifting block program and the last volume block killed me. Had online coach last year so planned on repeating the programs this year . Was actually weaker than this time last year which was a shock. So thinking maybe the typical powerlifting block type programming doesn't suit me or else I'm just getting older and weaker. So was thinking of 531 even for 6 months to see if that works best. Thanks Black Sheep, as always , sound advice

Black Sheep · 05-03-2022 8:50pm

I forgot… he didn’t do an E book of the last one because he got pissed off with illegal copying!

Good luck with it.

Cill94 · 06-03-2022 12:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118736081#Comment_118736081

Basically any decent strength programme is going to cover your bases for maintaining bone density and delaying muscle loss. 531 is a great choice.

Bellie1 · 20-03-2022 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118739193#Comment_118739193

Have read beyond and still unclear which variation will allow me lift more at higher percentage. Thinking of trying The rule of 10 to start( get total of 10 reps using the final set weight).

I'll be lifting 4 times a week. Full body doesn't suit-I did it previously and find the upper/lower split suits much more for my recovery.

I want to do some kind of squat and bench twice in the week. So thinking of eg having a box/pause squat and bench variation as accessories(squat variation on DL day etc). So the question is, heavy accessory lifts can be quite taxing eg rdls, barbell rows etc .I can't find any guidance of protocols for these kinds of lifts( or maybe I missed a paragraph). Should I apply basic 5/3/1 to them also or just do eg 3*8 at a high enough intensity .Or each cycle start a little lighter and work up the weight over the cycle? Similar to powerlifting program I previously followed?

Apparently Wendler rants about not sweating the accessories but I don't want them to impact on recovery and also don't want to lift too light.

Cill94 · 20-03-2022 11:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808787#Comment_118808787

You're overthinking things here. The whole point of the programme is that you don't try to lift at a high percentage all the time. This is done to ensure long term progress. As each cycle progresses, the weights get heavier. You can run that until the '1' week is eventually heavy enough for you to do a 1RM, and then start over with a new training max.

You definitely don't want to go heavy on accessories, and certainly wouldn't do 531 on them. If you try to push the weights up on the main lifts and accessories equally you'll f*ck your recovery. I typically just go for 3-5 sets of 10-20 reps on accessories, based on how I'm feeling.

Black Sheep · 20-03-2022 12:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808787#Comment_118808787

Regarding your first question, about choice of template... If your goal is mainly to get stronger / increase bone density then most of the 531 templates should work for you if you push the last set and you are adding weight each cycle.

I would avoid the ones which have a clear hypertrophy / bodybuilding focus, like Boring But Big, that could potentially start to take away from weight progression and top end strength, if that's your goal. On the other hand, it could be that adding muscle mass is what you need, in order to break a plateau, it's going to be an individual thing.

Personally, if you haven't done 531 before I would probably suggest you do at least 1-2 cycles of something like 531 FSL or 531 SSL and see how you go with that. These are the bread and butter templates. The rule of 10 could also work though. If the idea of a bunch of heavy singles appeals to you obviously that's the one.

The second question, the assistance and the accessories...

For your assistance work, which I'm taking to mean if you're doing another compound lift after your main lift of the day, again it will be individual. If you were failing your deadlifts close to the ground, or they're not budging, then I'd do something to train the legs directly, or do some deficit work. If you're failing your deadlifts nearer to lock-out then pick something like block pulls or RDLs to help glutes and hips. If you are failing your squat at the bottom, then yes, pause squats or pin squats could be good. If you have no quads then do high bar squats or front squats. In terms of how to set it up, I don't have the books in front of me but you'll have to dig through them, I'm pretty sure there are specific instructions in there, but it won't be the 531 scheme like the main lift for the workout.

In terms of accessories, if you're talking single joint movements like biceps, triceps, single leg exercises and so on, when Wendler says they don't matter he means the main lift and the assistance work takes priority, but you'll still want to be doing them with some intensity. If you do 2-3 sets then and they're a single joint movement like a set of DB curls then take them to failure, and next time either add reps or move up in weight.

Can You Combine Programmes?

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