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New A2 House Is Freezing!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 29 frankiekk


    We're in Kildare, was just going to Google BER accessor or something like that



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,867 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The house is on a hill, so they've told us we should expect it to be cold.

    Sorry, what? Isn't that the point of an A-rated home, that it's supposed to protect you from the outside environment?

    You say there are draughts coming in, you need to see if you can find the source, i.e. the window frames, coming from under the skirting board.

    16% humidity is so low I'd nearly think your equipment is faulty.

    I think you need a solicitor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,984 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    At this point BER anything is a waste of money.

    A tightness test is where they seal off the obvious sources of air loss(vents) and should have been done on the house by the builder but I guess you can't really trust that was done. I'd start here.

    Thermal Imaging, which would show where the heat is going, giving you a idea of location or locations of heat transfer.

    This should really be combined with somebody who is willing to start ripping down parts of walls to find out what the actual problem is, everything else says there is a problem and where it is.

    Honestly, you would have to imagine with that level of heat loss that they forgot to put some element in or just plain choose not to due to cost. Like insulation with has shot up in price in the last year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,829 ✭✭✭Alkers


    I haven't used them personally and I dont know if he posts here but I know of the owner of this site from another forum and a suspect his is exactly the kind of expertise you need http://www.rebelenergy.ie

    Might be a bit far to travel also



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,346 ✭✭✭Tefral


    OP as someone in the game and who is involved in alot of house building. There is a provisional BER done on a house Type and then a final BER. However if all the houses are the same they can just test that particular house type and apply the BER to the rest. A BER test will actually tell you nothing new.

    Is your house timber framed? If so a lot of these houses have crap Thermal Mass as they are well insulated but have no areas to store heat when its on and release back in when the surrounding room temp drops lower so that might be one thing. However, even with a house with say low internal thermal mass, you shouldn't be losing heat that quickly. I would engage an independent assessor to do a blower door airtightness test and check what you are getting. Your result should really be below 5 Air Changes in an Hour. Ask this person also to do some thermal imaging behind toilets and around windows to see what is happening.

    Document everything....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,833 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    OP, this is not a BER issue but rather a specific heat loss issue, likely air tightness (lack of) and these issues are generally replicated across similar houses in a development. Imo, your course of action should start with an independent heat loss survey (air tightness test plus thermal imaging) which will pinpoint what and where the issue(s) is. Perhaps get together with other home owners with the same issue and share the info / cost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29 frankiekk


    Yeah exactly, we were fuming when he said its on a hill! We did buy another humidity tester and it's looks better, it's around 40% so that's one thing solved! We got therminal leakage gun thingy and it looks like the windows are a big problem, so looks like a air tightness test could prove they're not fit for purpose?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29 frankiekk


    Yeah its timber frame. I've a feeling they cheaped out on the windows, therminal leakage radar showing a drop and around it, but the window people have been out to "tighten them" twice. Might just be sh!t windows not able for the hill.



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Probably nothing to do with the windows but the air tightness sealing and detailing for the timber frame, window sill, cavity, etc around them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    A BER will show up nothing as the person doesn't really investigate apart from what is able to be seen. If the owner doesn't see it the BER cert guy won't

    A heat loss survey or something similar would work, if multiple houses all require it contact suppliers and get a group deal. If the issues are identified then you have come back on the builder



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,984 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    You would feel the draught around them in high winds if they were not sealed properly. Thermal bridging from outside is expected around them to, to a extent. A expert in the field would have some concept of whats normal and what's not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29 frankiekk


    Had the window fitters in twice to look at them. The draught around them was actually blowing out candles in December. They're a little better now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    Getting a BER is useless it looks at how the house is constructed on paper and takes very few if any measurements

    I would get an architect who knows about green builds working on it. A visit from one would probably cost the same a BER, getting a report would be more. I would also contact SEAI and ask them to do site visit. You want to get on top of this now as come May you won't have cold weather to show problem.

    I'm in 60's demi-d which we extended and upgrades to a B3, it's never 14 unless it cold out and we have windows open upstairs and the back door open. Something is very very wrong here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Anything4883


    Gas, no MHRV, rads, bought yer own Thermostats?

    Sorry, But this doesn't sound like an A2 rated designed spec. Are you sure the BER states A2 rated?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,348 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    The lowest spec I've seen recently on a new build to achieve A2 was air to water heating with wall vents and rads with room stats all over. Insulation details unknown on that one but nothing special as far as I could work out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29 frankiekk


    @Anything4883 Yeah got it off the solicitor yesterday, says A2. Got the surveyors email so going to email now and see if he actually did it or just did one house in the estate and assumed the rest were the same



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    I'd be very surprised if a house could reach A2 with having a gas boiler and standard enough air vents, I do think at some point could be worth getting a new BER.

    Tbh in this day and age no new house should be getting planning for having a gas boiler.

    That still doesn't explain the heat loss though. Even a BER C house shouldn't lose heat that quick.

    Heat loss survey I think is what you need, when the heating is on do the walls themselves feel warm or cold, timber frame decent insulation they shouldn't be cold to touch.

    Sooner you can get a heat loss survey done or get an expert in the better, as easier to identify issues in cold weather.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,574 ✭✭✭Ottoman_1000


    A new A2 rated house with a Gas boiler for heating, no MHRV, rads and substandard ventilation, something doesn't add up here! Also having a house build on a hill shouldn't make any difference. That's just bluff from the contractor. Getting a BER assessor out is also a waste of them as 95% of their inspection will be based of the plans and the specs on the material used to build the house. They don't really carry out any physical inspection or check build or construction quality. Get an terminal air tightness test and see where exactly you are losing your heat and go from there!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,012 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Well there's part of your problem anyway. Not rocket science, just sounds like crap attention to detail in construction.

    You'd also wonder about the quantity & quality in terms of material in timber framed housing being constructed and how it'll be faring in 50 years time. Like many things in modern life, there's an expectation of planned obsolescence I think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭Deagol


    My daughter moved into a supposed A3 rated home. I found immediately that the sewers aren't sealed! There's cold air pouring into the house in the kitchen via the sewer plus a rotten smell of course. Found a few other things that surprised me to. Heating is by normal rads with gas combi boiler ....sound familiar?

    When I started to look into the rating I realised, they've installed 6x solar PV on the roof and that brings the rating up due to the simplistic way the BER system works.

    OP, by any chance does your house have a load of solar panels?



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,477 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    the BER system is not a measurement of how well your home is constructed, despite how SEAI sell the system.

    its simply a measurement tool used to compare like with like, ie a 2015 semi -d to another 2105 semi d

    this case sounds exactly like what can happened when technical regulatory goals have to be met, yet there is no on site quality control. paper targets are met (u values, glazing to wall ratios etc) while real world quality is sacrificed.

    too often im seeing houses signed off without air tightness tests, as all the certifier wants is the cert from the BER assessors to say that its A2 or whatever the target is. They dont realise two things, one that the BER assessor can still do the assessment without the test results an two that the BER certificate itself does not confer compliance with Part L



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Aside from the already mention sewer under the sink, check places like the gas flu. is cold air coming in there? Check parts of the all where you have a fixture on the outside eg. outdoor lights, outdoor taps and power points. Check behind the washing machine. There will be a lot of lifting and squeezing to be done. Check if there is a hole in the attic door. Water lines to sinks and toilets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    Hi Frankiekk.

    1. Heat is lost from a house is by either (a) Conduction or (b) Convection.
    2. CONDUCTION is heat loss through an element of the structure:- wall; ceiling; floor; windows, etc.
    3. I hope that the builder fitted insulation in the floor.
    4. you should be able to see the insulation in the attic, which should be approx 300 thick.
    5. in a Timberframe house the walls should be well insulated. I have come across a very cold timberframe house many years ago, and discovered that there was no insulation in the timberframe.
    6. You could request an electrician to remove some sockets fitted in the timberframe wall and check is there insulation in the wall.
    7. double glazing gives a good U value in relation to heat loss.
    8. CONVECTION is heat loss by the movement of air
    9. Some builders and some workers on site are a disgrace to the Construction Industry, and do not have the proper knowledge of correct construction, and some are just totally incompetent and don’t care.
    10. There are 5 main areas in most houses where air is exchanged between the house and the attic void, especially in older houses. (A) holes in the ceiling of the hot press where the pipes from the plumbing and heating pass through at this point. (B) Attic access doors that are poorly fitted and are not fitted with draught excluders. (C) Where the electric wires from the attic void pass down through the ceiling to the Fuse Board (consumer electrical distribution board) and (D) through the holes in the ceiling where the electric wires pass down through the ceiling to the electric light fitting in every room. (E) Downlights that are not air sealed above the ceiling, and /or not properly sealed below the ceiling and
    11. also draughts around enternal windows and doors, between the frame and the plaster.
    12. To reduce heat loss and draughts and reduce the amount of condensation getting from the house to the attic these holes should be completely blocked and made air tight.
    13. Downlighting should be replaced with sealed units. 
    14. Health & Safety. Only persons competent in walking in the attic, should go in to the attic to carry out the sealing of these holes. No person except a competent electrician should open any electrical fittings. Expanded foam should only be used by competent persons and strictly in accordance with the manufacturers safety instructions. 
    15. All of these holes could be sealed with silicone mastic —-( would be my choice of sealant.) For large gaps it can be built up over a few days. 
    16. The attic access door should be fitted with a rubber draught excluder with some fittings to compress the rubber. Also put 100 minimum Insulation on the upper side of the access door ( could be glued on with silicone mastic). 
    17. Rooms in the Attic would have other gaps and air leaks which are not mentioned above.
    18. where the plumbing pipes pass through the ceiling in to the attic is usually an area of big heat loss.
    19. have a look at the areas of heat loss by Convection that I have mentioned above.
    20. it is my opinion that you would be wasting your time and money engaging a BER Assessor.
    21. you should have an Air-Tightness test carried out on your house.




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,348 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    What are people seeing as typical airtightness test results now?

    To be honest, A blind monkey could achieve a result that would meet the regs such is the low standard required.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30 CosyChair


    hi i have same problem with vent holes in wall i intend sealing them up in the summer with spray foam & plaster. 9 inch hole in the wall doesent make sence when you are trying to heat your home.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 Nsonowa


    I have a door to the outside of the house that has a small opening at the bottom. I think it is due to the door not fitting in the frame 100%. I think I lose some heat this way. Maybe you have something similar?

    On that note.. does anyone know how to get a door like that fixed? 😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭Biker1


    Results I'm getting are usually below 3m3/hr/m2 with the odd exception above that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,895 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Yeah don't do that for numerous reasons all detailed fully on this channel in the forum.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,895 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    What type of door is it generally a bend in the door has zero way to fix it except for replacing the entire door.

    You could put extra door seal on that part of the door to seal the gap as a temporary measure



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  • Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭homewardbound11


    Re: what air tightness tests are we getting

    1.5 @q50 back in year 2010. Thought I was doing ok at the time . But know now it could have been halved . There were some obvious leaks though at the time . ESP around the chimney breast ( internal structure)

    problem I have now is material degrading over the years . Ie part composite/ wood doors expanding at different rates causing gaps .



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