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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,904 ✭✭✭✭josip


    No matter what the cost of gas, if your house isn't adequately insulated, it will be impossible to heat it to a comfortable level with a heat pump.

    Above a certain temperature gradient, the rate of loss of energy from the structure will increase to the point that it exceeds the rate of supply from the heat pump.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think its fair to say that if the insulation is crap in a house, its going to impossible to heat properly regardless of the heat source.

    I know I've lived in some crap places down through the years that cost a fortune to heat and were always baltic once the temp dropped.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Prices won't come down irrespective of what the source is, €3-4k a year electricity bills will be the norm with the likelihood of a percentage of homes with no electricity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Did woodchip burners get any better?



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    What do you think of Micro CHP systems. They are about the same cost as a condensor boiler but more efficient. Although residential units currently run on NG only, there is work being done to allow them to operate on Hydrogen.

    A micro-CHP boiler typically uses mains gas or LPG, so they aren’t considered a renewable energy source, however due to their efficiency and productivity, they can significantly lower carbon dioxide emissions and are widely considered to be the future of domestic carbon emission depletion. They may in the future be able to utilise bio-oils, fuel cells or other renewable energy sources, but at present the technologies that are currently ready for market deployment have been developed to use mains natural gas.


    If there was widespread consumer adoption of this, it may also negate the need to build a lot of gas power stations as every home with one could be a small scale generator feeding electricity into the network. Also demand for electricity would be reduced as each house would also be generating their own.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    They give you heat and electricity. No choice, you have to be able to use both.

    IIRC for the micro Stirling it was 5kW heat for 1kW electricity. If have 24/7 demand for both then it makes sense.

    Flo gas do them https://www.flogas.ie/business/business-heating/chp-combined-heat-and-power-systems.html

    Medium installations use a gas powered engine to generate electricity on sites such as hotels and leisure complexes. The excess heat is used where there is sufficient demand such as swimming pools.

    Small - As technology improves, smaller scale units are becoming available on the market known as micro-CHP. There are different forms of micro-CHP such small scale gas engine, fuel cells and the gas boiler with a sterling engine, which generates up to 1kW electricity when the boiler is firing.

    Medium and large would be where you pay more for electricity buy have a use for lots of low cost heat.

    Small would be where you are using gas for heating anyway and have a use for essentially free electricity (most of which will get converted back to heat in the building anyway)





  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Thanks bob, that is very interesting. I was aware of CHP use in apartment buildings, office, etc. but I wasn't aware of residential level micro chp. I see in the UK, it gets a feed in tariff into the grid too.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,673 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I have thought of this approach - CHP - as a good solution. The generator is say 30% to 40% efficient in converting the natural gas to electricity, which leaves the 70% to 60% to end up as heat. It sounds attractive if certain conditions pertain.

    It can be run as either a heating system with free electricity, or conversely, an electricity generator providing free heat. Now if solar PV is added, summer electricity comes from solar, and winter electricity comes CHP. Of course, the system would need a battery system that could cover about 24 hrs of normal usage, and a generous feed-in tariff.

    Now, given a fair shake on overall costs, including capital and running costs, I could be persuaded down that route.


    .



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,197 ✭✭✭crisco10



    I wonder what your definition of "crap" is? Our current house is a standard 1980's semi D, was BER E1 when we bought, but we've done windows, attic insulation and a few other things to improve it. But from insulation/air tightness perspective, I'd say its still low C's or D. Our heating bills aren't bonkers - we've used 8000kWh of gas this past year, and its a combi boiler so that includes water heating.

    We were replacing our dilapidated oil boiler last year, and converted to gas. We did look at heat pump, but the feedback was unanimously from the few suppliers that we talked to that it would struggle to heat the house at all comfortably.



  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭specialbyte


    Video presentation to Engineers Ireland on solar farm development in Ireland and UK by Elgin Power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3nefrm6cjU

    Highlights from my perspective:

    • Financial case can be made in all parts of Ireland. It's all about getting economies of scale. They need sites near existing grid of a decent size (minimum 150 acres / 60 hectares)
    • Solar projects tend to be biodiversity net-gain
    • Expected life expectancy of solar projects in Ireland is 30 years but can be as much as up to 40 years.
    • Land is secured on lease from landholder for 40 years instead of bought by Elgin Power
    • Still open debate in the industry between central inverters versus string inverters for projects
    • Still open debate in the industry between between direct DC or grid AC coupling between solar panels and onsite battery storage

    Interesting to see the list of Consented / Under Construction projects in Ireland on their website: https://www.elgin-energy.com/projects/

    It will be interesting to see which of the consented projects can secure the grid connection and financing needed to make it to the construction phase.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭gjim


    At the end of the day, you're still generating some electricity locally at a small and inefficient scale by burning NG while emitting CO2 (and NOx). It can't be considered "free" - the energy it contains has to have come from somewhere. Your replacing 1kWh of grid electricity with a locally produced equivalent with over 3 times the carbon intensity. And as the grid gets greener, this multiple will rise.

    I don't see a way to avoid the conclusion that the domestic burning of natural gas has no long term future and a limited medium term future. And I don't see any realistic replacement - something that works right now - except for electrification.

    Natural gas delivers a double whammy in terms of warming - not just the CO2 emitted during combustion (along with a bunch of other unpleasant pollutants) but the entire process of extracting it, storing it, transporting it and using it results in methane leaking into the atmosphere which is a highly potent green house gas.

    Once natural gas is no longer required to support grid-scale renewable generation, then it should be retired from all other aspects of the energy economy.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,673 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    @gjim

    I am merely looking at the possibility of CHP for domestic use. NG will be available for 25 years or so.

    Currently, I use gas to heat my home, and get ESB electricity. I cannot remember exact costs but I think gas is about 5 c per KWh, and electricity is 17c per KWh - these may last years figures. So if gas produces 3 KWh of electricity for 10 KWhs of gas, then the electricity costs 50/3 c per KWh or 17 c per unit, but gives 7 KWhs of heat for no extra charge. Sounds like a good return. Add a battery, and a generous feed in tariff, then it looks like a good proposition - same amount of gas to heat with extra electricity for free.

    You are looking at it from the side of public policy rather than the view of the individual user who measures efficiency in the wallet. Do not forget, the user is using retail pricing rather than wholesale prices used by suppliers.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Massive changes to energy generation all across the EU proposed due to the recent actions by Russia.




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    There's a lot in this , basically the lights aren't going off in Europe , but its going to be expensive -

    And the idea of looking to go towards bio-methane or growing bio-mass is not a goer - food prices are soaring and there are real risks of food crisis ... Hydrogen is probably off the short term plan too - we're not ready yet ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    “food prices are soaring and there are real risks of food crisis”

    Yes, Ukraine is known as the breadbasket of Europe.

    Russia/Belarus/Ukraine are some of the largest exporters of grain, but perhaps more significantly they are the largest exporters of fertilisers.

    Ireland gets 1/3rd of our fertiliser from Russia, prices have already increased 50%

    Though important to point out, like with the electricity, here in Ireland, we won’t run out of food or anything like that. But we will pay more for it. It is poor and developing countries that will be hardest hit by this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    The higher the prices the more jobs lost, higher transport costs will see many businesses close.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    ESB have tendered for the demolition of power stations at Shannonbridge and Lanesborough


    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/256827



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    ESB are continuing with the offshore investigations even though equinor have pulled out.

    They must be confident of getting someone else on board which is good news for moneypoint 1 and 2 as equinor were partner there also.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,730 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    An i taught i read last week Eamon Ryan said they may have have a future as emergency back up stations



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭gjim



    These plants are too small to have a meaningful impact in an emergency (less than 250MW total), too expensive to run (fuel costs), too dirty (the most CO2 intensive and polluting electricity source in Ireland), too slow to warm-up/cool-down to be useful for peaking, too expensive to keep just as an emergency source (you'd still have to employ a full crew but there'd be no work for them 99% of the time, maintain all the plant, ensure fuel supply infrastructure, etc.).

    Effectively replacing this capacity with modern natural gas capacity as part of the plan to ensure NG back-up for renewables - as recently announced - makes far more sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,730 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Where is the gas going to come from for these plants but?



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭medoc



    There is no fuel for these stations to burn any more. BNM stopped harvesting peat in 2019. The remaining stock piles are been used to run Edenderry power station on a peat/biomass mix until the end of 2023 and also for briquette production until 2024. Bord Na Mona are rehabilitating each bog once the stock is removed and so they are unsuitable for production even if a change in policy happened


    Also most of not all of the operating staff in the stations are gone. The only real option for these stations was to convert to gas but as stated they are too small for the conversion to be cost effective and useful.

    The sites may be used for battery storage or other purposes but the stations themselves are finished.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Getting the gas to them would be an issue, how many trucks a day would be required?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Eamon Ryan said carbon tax was used for child allowance, pay no heed to that embecile



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Russia's actions are pushing EU govt's to rapidly pivot to renewables and other fossil fuel suppliers.

    The IEA plan indicates a logical plan forward. More at the link, summary below

    In relation to Ireland, I think we're going to see wind farm (on & off shore) developments falling under Strategic Infrastructure Development planning applications i.e. going straight to ABP. Its possible the same will happen with solar farms.

    WRT off shore and port developments, I hope we see the govt staffing up the relevant depts to speed things up.

    I think its also a safe bet that we are likely to blow past 5GW for off shore that was planned for by 2030



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Large image - https://i.imgur.com/STnjoiI.png - looks like it includes planed ones too



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