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Newly built social homes sitting idle for over 8 months in Wexford

1246

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,305 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I know you don’t agree with it and that’s fair enough, but my point was that you were able to provide the document, and I’m thinking surely the people in local authorities who’s jobs involve actually requiring them to be aware of these things, y’know… I don’t even know how to put it as it’s just so bizarre to me that they could be as qualified as they are, in the jobs that they do, and yet they appear to overlook the most blatantly obvious needs of the people they’re supposed to be providing with accommodation.

    Like I said - personal capacity, fine, think of travellers whatever they want, but in their professional capacity? They cannot possibly be so stupid. There has to be some other explanation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,636 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Where exactly did I condone this toxic, filthy, misogynistic culture?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,636 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Good to see that you’ve progressed your thinking from single child to children, fair play.

    I posted the article because someone else brought up the question of Travellers staying in school. Research showing them being repeatedly sent home early is relevant in that context.



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    Nope, I strongly disagree with you there - I ABSOLUTELY DO blame traveller culture for this and have no problem saying so. I also blame the family in question - but that is because they are immersed in traditional traveller culture. This includes pulling children out of school at 12/13 years of age, widespread abuse towards women, and various other toxic and criminal behaviour which is accepted/encouraged within that community. BTW, I'm a teacher and have direct personal experience of this. I'm surprised that anyone would - even tacitly - support any aspect of this horrible culture.

    I would argue that the "quiet traveller" family have rejected the more damaging aspects of traveller culture - this is why they are "quiet".

    So yes, I do blame the family in question and I do blame the culture.



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    You've been condoning traveller culture throughout this thread. The behaviour from the travellers who refused the houses is typical of this culture, thus you are condoning this toxic, filthy, misogynistic culture.



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And which part of their culture do you blame for which behaviour?

    Not sure what you being a teacher has to do.with it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,491 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Well you must not have noticed Andrew, but for the past two years or so we had an unusual period due to the emergence of a pandemic. Apologies for presuming you were aware of that. Suffice to say that many services and regular activities were cancelled or curtailed for many people and many children. The anecdote that a traveller child claimed they were not sent a link for a zoom call is not evidence of a systemic bar to education for travellers.

    You might think that you are "helping" by removing all responsibility and accountability from certain people for their own actions. But you aren't. You are hindering them. Allowing them to wallow in perpetual self-manufactured victimhood prevents them from actually improving their positions in life. You are merely teaching them helplessness. It may be that you don't want them to progress or achieve their potential.



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    I'm a teacher so I see the child abuse first hand.

    The aspects of traveller culture I blame are the misogyny, the criminality, the child abuse, the anti-social behaviour, willingness to live in filth when they have been provided with new houses, the expectation that they will never contribute anything positive to society, the support of criminality, stopping schooling at 3rd class (and much, much more). These are all part of traveller culture, and this culture is the norm as opposed to the exception.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,841 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    I agree with you, but I will qualify it by saying I don't think there should be taxpayer-financed specific traveller accomm.

    If they wish to purchases plots of land, to build their own accomm, or on which to place their own caravans, fair enough, subject to the normal planning rules.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not a teacher, but probably see a lot more of the child abuses up close.

    most of those things you have listed are your prejudiced beliefs about travellers. Very few of those things are traveller culture, just things you associate with travellers.

    Look, you're not the only one, everyone does it to a certain extent. It's the one form of discrimination which is totally acceptable in Ireland.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,841 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I speak to an Education Welfare Officer fairly regularly.

    I can confirm the high school absence rates of traveller children.


    In 1960 my grandparents valued education so much, they made sure that all their children got a trade/education/degree.

    In 2020, we are meant to clap if a traveller gets a degree.

    My response is lads, you're forty years behind everybody else, it's a disgrace that your educational outcomes are so poor, and it's your own fault.

    The schools are all open, you choose not to go.

    Yet the media portrays it as if these people have no agency, as if their outcomes are somehow my fault.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,841 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    A very good point.

    People have agency, they are not helpless.

    Yet we seem to treat many people (not just travellers) as if they are helpless.

    Schools and colleges are open, there are loads of jobs available.


    Instead, we tell people: "you are a victim, you are helpless, your high unemployment rate is not your fault".

    That attitude doesn't help.



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    I think you are scrambling a bit here to be honest! Your arguments simply don't hold up!

    What do you think "culture" means? If you accept a widely help definition - "Culture can be defined as all the ways of life including arts, beliefs and institutions of a population that are passed down from generation to generation" - then everything I am saying is correct and you are just simply wrong.

    Traveller culture thus is everything I say in my previous posts, and that fact that the vast majority of travellers behave exactly as I describe supports my point.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BattleCorp1


    You know, sometimes perception matches reality.

    Travellers make up 0.6% of the population but they are way over-represented in the prison population. 10% of the male population are travellers and 22% of the female population are travellers. It's clear that there's a problem with criminality in traveller culture.

    Culture isn't only the positive aspects such as close family ties, singing etc. It can also be the bad stuff too, like the mysogeny/criminality/animal cruelty etc.

    And pointing out the bad stuff like my jail stats isn't discrimination as you call it, it's just using evidence to call a spade a spade.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,636 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Can you point out the specific sentences where I condoned toxic, filthy, misogynistic culture please?



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    You seem to be supporting traveller culture - same thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,281 ✭✭✭Kaybaykwah


    I think that there must be an extra article left out of the negotiations:


    All houses fitted with a fire hydrant should twin said fire hydrant to a Tap so that family members who remain nomadic can park their caravans on the street. There.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,636 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Can you point out the specific sentences where I removed all responsibility and accountability from certain people for their own actions please?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,636 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Can you point out the specific sentences where I supported Traveller culture please?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,966 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Maybe we should build them mini farmsteads with a couple of acres of land for whatever livestock they happen have acquired…

    mad kip.



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    Ok, I'm confused. If you are not supporting traveller culture, what have you been saying all thread?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,128 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    If that's your attitude, then there's no way you should be allowed to be teaching Traveller children.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,636 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Go back and read my posts. They’re quite clear.

    And ask yourself why you jumped to wild conclusions with no evidence.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Maybe he doesn't support your version of what you describe as traveller culture.



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    I have read your posts - they are anything but clear. You seem to be waffling on about equality when it's obvious you don't understand what you are saying.

    Also, that you wont answer my simple question says a lot.



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    What I describe IS traveller culture. I thought we'd already agreed that!



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    I don't get the chance to teach many traveller children. Most of them are taken out of school before they get to me.

    Its traveller culture that children should not be educated.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. You decided that some behaviours are traveller culture. The.behaviours that you don't like. Such as criminality. Criminals are criminals, they commit crime. Some criminals are settled, some are travellers. You have decided that that is part of their culture. For one example



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  • Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭mary 2021


    There is no traveller culture unless you count animal cruelty as an ethnic culture thats all they can seem to do consistently and with relish !! They keep their caravans clean and destroy the environment around them with toxic litter and filth & again steal dogs and breed dogs and sell inbred dogs with loads of health issues. The irish traveller is quite toxic and all the virtue signallers in the world will not change my view of them. There are 3 starving horses near me and every night at 11pm i go down and give them hay from my own horses hay I also bring water they never check them......cruel cruel bast-ardos they dont deserve a house all they do is wreck it and use it for keeping the stolen dogs in !! They should all be sent to the Ukraine to fight that would be a good solution !! send all the prisoners there and give the cells to the refugees.



  • Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭mary 2021


    Traveller culture my hole they never register or passport or micro chip their horses or dogs thats the law and every garda avoids the issue. They are thuigs and bullies and the garda are afraid of them "!



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    I didn't decide anything. The data and knowledge speaks for itself.

    If you agree that culture "encompasses the social behavior and norms found in human societies, as well as the knowledge, beliefs, arts, laws, customs, capabilities, and habits of the individuals in these groups" then yes, criminality is part of traveller culture.

    How about culture as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group"? Yup, still means criminality is part of traveller culture.

    One last one - culture is "in its broadest sense is cultivated behavior; that is the totality of a person's learned, accumulated experience which is socially transmitted, or more briefly, behavior through social learning". Yet again, according to this definition criminality is part of traveller culture.

    Is there something you don't understand about this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,636 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Which bit of my fairly simple point on equality did you have difficulty understanding?



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    Read my post above responding to your cartoon on equality.

    I'm here if you have any questions on my response.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    What do you work as?

    I am friends with many teachers, travelling children generally have little chance due to their "culture"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,412 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Possibly the most maligned and vulnerable group across Europe and the best you can come up with is anecdotal evidence.

    1 in 4 Roma perished in WW2 as a result of persecution and according to all statistics now , in modern day Europe suffer discrimination across political, social, and economic (literacy, income, life span, infant mortality, diet, representation in government, access to health care and legal aid, education, employment) making them the lowest status of any ethnic group in Europe.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Criminality must also be part of the Irish culture, if that's the case



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not outing myself online 🤣

    But yes I agree, travellers don't have much chance when they are taken out if school so early. I believe they should be forced to stay until leaving certificate.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,636 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The only question I have for you is why you jumped to unfounded conclusions about my views and opinions?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,305 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    The thing I don’t understand about your point of view is why you think you haven’t decided anything when it’s patently obvious you have decided that you will associate criminality with traveller culture. You’re cherry picking data, that’s not nearly the same thing as the data speaking for itself when it’s your own very specific interpretation of what data on traveller culture is available.

    But fair enough you don’t teach traveller children, and there are many more reasons for that too that have nothing to do with traveller culture and everything to do with discrimination based upon prejudice, but, even leaving that much aside, I think it’s being unfair to you to assume you’d actually allow your personal opinions of travellers to influence your professional behaviour. I’m guessing you don’t teach children that criminality is an aspect of traveller culture, and the knowledge of traveller culture you impart to the children is more along the lines of this kind of thing -


    Cultural values and traditions

    Nomadism has been described as a core value of Traveller culture. This does not necessarily imply the intention to keep travelling but rather as Michael McDonagh, a Navan Traveller, says, "nomadism entails a way of looking at the world, a different way of perceiving things, a different attitude to accommodation, to work and to life in general." Just as settled people remain settled people even when they travel, Travellers remain Travellers even when they are not travelling. Maintaining family ties and linking with the extended family are central to the Traveller way of life, and their lives are organised around this. The Traveller’s very identity requires "keeping in touch," and this in turn requires travel.

    Traveller culture also includes a tradition of self-employment, occupational flexibility, and economic adaptation. A strong faith and distinctive customs around death and marriage are an important part of Traveller life. There has been an oral transmission of culture from generation to generation, and Travellers have also played a significant role as bearers of the wider culture. Travellers’ story-telling, singing and music tradition are distinctive and worthy of note.

    Language

    Travellers have a language of their own. The academic name for the language is Shelta; Travellers call it Gammon or Cant. This language is known not only to Irish Travellers born here and in Britain but also by the descendants of Irish Travellers who emigrated to America before the Great Famine.

    Distinct and different

    Because of Travellers’ common ancestry, cultural values, and other aspects of their life-style, Travellers are seen by themselves and others as distinct and different. Like Travellers and Gypsies all over the world, their relationship with settled society shows a pattern of discrimination and exclusion.





  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    How did you make that jump?

    The prison population consists of something like 10% traveller men and 25% traveller women. That would would strongly support my view that criminality is part of traveller culture.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Would it? By that standard there must be 90% settled men and 75% settled women in prison.

    That would strongly support the view that criminality is part of Irish culture.



  • Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭mary 2021


    Well then why dont they enforce the laws on them i have to micro chip my stock & my dogs? They can stop sulky racing on the spot if they scan the horse & see no registrastion chip on the horse? Thats the law but the mob rules and the garda just eat the donuts in the squad car i have seen it for my self. Coursing on my neighbours land and the lurchers are there unchipped no garda will even go near the lurchers. Why not, tell me i am keen to know is is not fear?



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    Thanks for that ... very informative.

    However, also very outdated. That may be the culture amongst older members of the traveller population, but the vast majority of the younger generations cannot speak much more than a few words of Shelta. The old cultures are quite quickly being replaced by newer cultural beliefs and practices. I find most of these new cultural practices repugnant (especially the ones against women and education). There is no arguing that this is now traveller culture, and that the more traditional traveller culture is being replaced by something different.

    This really can't be argued ... unless we can agree on some other definition of culture that suits a particular narrative. if we use any of the accepted definitions of culture in the social sciences then I am correct in what I am saying.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Are the gardai sitting in their cars eating donuts while watching lurchers on your neighbours land?

    If you want gardai to do something about something illegal, then make a report.



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    Travellers make up 0.6% of the Irish population and 10% male / 25% female of the Irish prison population.

    Do the math ... the figures speak for themselves.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Do they? Perhaps they just can't afford good legal defence? Maybe that's why they are represented more?

    No matter what you do to try and justify your prejudices, it won't work. But like I said, you're not the only one, it's perfectly acceptable in Ireland



  • Registered Users Posts: 840 ✭✭✭teachinggal123


    "Perhaps they just can't afford good legal defence?" Seriously??? Absolute rubbish!! Do you have any idea how the Irish legal system and free legal aid works? Are you seriously trying to say there is the same level of criminality in the traveller and non-traveller population in Ireland?????

    If you can point me to any evidence - anything at all - that supports your claim that travellers get poor legal representation then I will concede the point and admit that I'm prejudiced.

    If not, I'll put my faith in the science and the huge body of research on traveller culture and traveller criminality. I'll also put my faith in my own professional experiences of working with traveller children and young women (which I doubt you have btw).



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