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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Ukraine refrains from joining NATO, only with a full Western/NATO backed security guarantee. Whereby the aforementioned parties guarantee the sovereignty of Ukrainian borders (this is obviously the real negotiation).

    That guarantee would almost be the same as being in NATO so no chance the Russians would go for it. They want to ability to be able to invade Ukraine again in the future without any NATO forces intervening (just like now)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    The day after Medvedchuk was put on house arrest, Putin put 3k troops on the Ukraine border for "training".

    Are you putting words in my mouth again?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭liamtech


    Not necessarily. The guarantee would be not involve NATO forces within Ukraine. This would be crucial. im just spit-balling of course - we just have to watch what happens, and what comes out of the negotiations

    (most of) our hearts are in the right places

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭liamtech


    NO! Im not @Pussyhands ! There is absolutely no reason to do so. You have popped up time and again, here, and elsewhere, with a decidedly pro-Russian/'ambiguous' stance on this situation. For me, and most others, there is absolutely no ambiguity regarding this conflict.

    So i reiterate - There is no need whatsoever for me to 'put words in your mouth' - i have not done so in the past either - You are doing a fine job of that yourself, why would i need to interfere!


    ALSO: 3 thousand troops training next to a border is nothing. the most you could argue is that its sabre rattling -

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    So if that didn't happen Russia would not have invaded. Is that you assertion. That particular incident started the war.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,442 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Don't want to look like you don't know what you're talking about? That's fair, but I think that ship has already sailed. "Special Operation" it is so.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    ##Mod Note##

    This is the Politics forum , not CA.

    Glib one liners and a refusal to support your position are not acceptable.

    Up the standards of posting please.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    I see the red Cross are reporting that the so called humanitarian route out of mariopol has been mined by the Russians



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Here's a link with details on the claim

    Dominik Stillhart, the director of operations for the ICRC, told the BBC's Today program on Monday that the organization had been talking to both sides "for days on end," but issues remained with confirming the details of cease-fire agreements that would allow civilians out of bombarded cities.

    He said that agreements "in principle" had immediately broken down because they lacked the precise detail about the routes and who could use them.

    Stillhart said some ICRC staff had tried to get out of Mariupol on Sunday, but then discovered the road indicated to them was mined.


    "We have a team on Mariupol on the ground," he said. "They were ready yesterday despite the fact that it was not entirely clear what exactly the agreement was. And as soon as they reached the first checkpoints, they realized that the road that was indicated to them was actually mined. So therefore, the agreement couldn't be implemented.

    Seems like it's more a lack of any clarity on what routes are supposed to be used than a deliberate targeting of refugees -

    Still showing an utterly reprehensible and callous disrespect for civilian lives though either way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I'd be more inclined to give the Russians the benefit of the doubt on this landmine story if it weren't for the fact there are numerous cases of them actively murdering civilians fleeing in their cars. Many of them women. I think that they are trying to terrorise the civilian population as some kind of psychological weapon in order to get the country to break. I suspect that the likes of the Wagner group would easily stoop to these levels.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭loughside


    Apologies if this isnt in the right thread, but where to get any info on ukrainian refugees into Ireland?

    The wife's parents need to get out asap, they`re presently in the west after a three day journey on an evacuation train.


    any idea if Ryanair need passport id or whatever now??



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭liamtech


    I would contact the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs at once - im not even gonna speculate - you should call at once

    from page above - incls number

    Contact Visas for Ireland

    Use the form below to get in touch with us.

    Queries about Visas for Ireland cannot be dealt with out of hours. If your query relates to another urgent consular case (i.e. emergency) and occurs outside of office hours, please contact the Department on 00353 1 4082000 or alternatively please contact the relevant Irish Embassy abroad

    Please note that your email address will be validated on entry.  

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,442 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    There's a refugee travel document that can fill in for a passport. Ryanair got in trouble for refusing one of these documents a while back, so I expect they would accept it now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Yep, the invasion 100% wouldn't have happened because there would have been a pro Russian voice in Ukraine. This article explains it exactly. Gonna call Time magazine Putinbots now or something?

    Just like the Crimea annexation in 2014 was a direct result of the pro Russia leader being overthrown.

    Last February, days after the Inauguration of President Joe Biden, America’s allies in Kyiv decided to get tough on Medvedchuk. The Ukrainian government started by taking his TV channels off the air, depriving Russia of its propaganda outlets in the country. The U.S. embassy in Kyiv applauded the move. About two weeks later, on Feb. 19, 2021, Ukraine announced that it had seized the assets of Medvedchuk’s family. Among the most important, it said, was a pipeline that brings Russian oil to Europe, enriching Medvedchuk and his family—including Putin’s goddaughter, Daria—and helping to bankroll Medvedchuk’s political party.


    The first inkling of Putin’s response came less than two days later, at 7 a.m. on Feb. 21. In a little-noticed statement, the Russian Defense Ministry announced the deployment of 3,000 paratroopers to the border with Ukraine for “large-scale exercises,” training them to “seize enemy structures and hold them until the arrival of the main force.” Those soldiers were the first in a military buildup that has since grown to more than 100,000 Russian troops. In their scramble to respond, the U.S. and its allies have sent planeloads of weapons to Ukraine and thousands of troops to secure the eastern flank of the NATO alliance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,442 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    So do you believe Russia has a right to install puppet leaders in bordering countries? Is it not the democratic right of Ukrainians to elect their own government?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,683 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    A) The invasion still started when Russian troops crossed into Ukraine

    B) Do you think their actions were wrong? Or you just think they should have appeased and cow-towed to Russian interests?



  • Registered Users Posts: 925 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    Nothing very pedantic about the dictionary definition of ''invasion''(the cambridge online dictionary)

    ''an occasion when an army or country uses force to enter and take control of another country''



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Yes, the invasion started technically when they crossed the border. Just like abortion got legalised when it was signed into law, but it was Savita's death that really got the ball rolling. I have no interest in spelling every little thing out to you, you're being purposely obtuse

    B) Do you think their actions were wrong?

    For the 100000th time, yes. How many more times do I have to repeat myself? I've never once supported Putin or Russias invasion yet you all keep coming along calling me Putin bot or whatever. Just because I say if Ukraine didn't do X, then Y wouldn't happen, doesn't actually mean I think X shouldn't have happened!



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,683 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yes, there is background to the invasion. The background being that Putin felt he was losing influence over the country (because he was). You are doing little different than blaming a victim of domestic violence because they tried to leave so its really their own fault. Its vile.

    Zelenskiy was elected in large part on a promise to rout out corruption and deal with Ukraine's oligarch problem. So great, Ukraine's attempt to address lawlessness and corruption in their own country has led to Russia invading as Putin is incredibly pro these things. Perhaps they wanted a better future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭liamtech


    @Pussyhands

    In answering the questions asked by @kowloon , you were unequivocal - which i applaud. Why then are you equivocal/ambiguous on other topics.

    You seem to be acknowledging the facts in one sense, but disputing them in another sense? I am not putting words in your mouth. But i am taking the sum total of what you have stated in many different posts. Which would suggest a tacit understanding with the Russian position.

    Its as though Russia, tried to remain dominant in Ukrainian internal affairs. They used proxies in place within the Ukraine, and when this illegal policy failed, and the proxies were arrested/countered: They had no choice but to invade (I detect ambiguous attitude to this, as if to say, yes they tried to avert this invasion by remaining as over-seers of the Ukrainian government, and then 'did what they needed to')

    The above italics is paraphrase of what i have seen here on this thread, and elsewhere. I have also read other statements such as those that are quoted, which are unequivocal. You say you have stated multiple times that Russia is wrong. I acknowledge that, i have seen you do so.

    Knowing what you know.

    • Is your argument that the Ukraine should have facilitated/turned-a-blind-eye, to Russian interference in their nation, IN ORDER TO AVOID military intervention?
    • Do you think the Ukraine should now allow a 180 turn, facilitate/turn-a-blind-eye, to Russian interference in their nation, IN ORDER TO END this War??
    • If affirmative on the above, do you not view this attitude as ethically and morally wrong? I would go as far as to ask is it not treasonous
    • Why do you feel the need to speak like this?
    • and finally, what is your actual point, overall?

    Respond if you will that you are addressing 'the facts' - i expect this, and thats fine. But do try to answer the questions

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    The Ruble is absolutely cratering. I think it was just under 80 Rubles to the USD before the invasion.

    It was in the 120 range over the weekend.

    This afternoon it's collapsed again.



    Xe.com has it at 154 to the USD

    Even at that more conservative estimate it's halved in value since pre-invasion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,535 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Currencies are like any commodity, it's all supply and demand. The sanctions have decimated the demand from exports, but at the same time imports are also screwed so they'll have shortages of imported goods either directly from the sanctions or due to the shipping bans. If you can't import it anyway it doesn't really matter. It's not really the same as any of the collapses else where.

    Gas and oil were previously sold via dollar and now probably either Euro or Yuan.

    Unless someone has some breakdown on inflation in Russia over the last weeks, a ruble could still be buying the same as it did or near for any domestically produced goods.

    Any within Russia that held foreign reverse locally is benefitting from all this as demand for foreign currency to trade is increased but those rates would more or less as the rates would differ local vs free market, and anyone who held large amounts of rubles internationally with it just sitting there losing value and unable to be spent; companies that dealt imports from Russia (petro, grains, ores)



  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭spongbob


    I am travelling to an eastern polish airport next week and then onto Ukraine- I've reach the peak of my life where I cannot sit back and do nothing! I've already given money donations to the irish red cross and still I feel useless I want to travel there as a volunteer and help out in any little way that I can on the ground, weather it's to pass out meals to the Ukraine soldiers or comfort a family that has lost everything! I dont have any military experience what so ever nor can I speak their forion language BUT I am 100% sick of looking the blood shed that's on the news and social media of kids and woman crying and fleeing there homelands all because one pr1ck wants to cause conflict and take over! Us irish know only too well what's it's like to be ran from out from our home towns under British rule just 100yrs ago! I feel very strongly about this and it shouldnt be happening in 2022! Bully boy Putin will not stop with Ukraine he wont stop until he picks off the other less defenseless neighbouring countries

    I am booking a 1 way ticket and I'd like to think one day I will be buying another ticket back to Ireland - who knows I may end up in a body bag! but I know one thing I wont be one for sitting back and doing nothing!



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    I heard the CEO of the Red Cross speaking about pledging a room or an empty house. He said they would be asking for a commitment of 6 months or a year

    Now personally speaking I think that a huge ask . A short term commitment surely would suit a lot more people ?

    I would really like to help with a room but not entirely sure I could commit for a year ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,442 ✭✭✭✭kowloon




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    As far as I know its a Government scheme but organised by the Red Cross

    You pledge a room or a house to give Ukrainians a place to stay . I know a lot of people who would be willing to do that for a few weeks but committing for 6/12 months is a huge ask



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    There's no ambiguity in my posts at all. It's people like you who try to make conclusions of my support position based on my comments on what the situation is as far as I see it.

    For example, when I said the Russian army will eventually beat the Ukrainian army and take control (and I also said it wouldn't be possible for them to control it long term) I was accused of hoping the Russian army wins. When Michael Moore predicted Trump would win in 2016, did anyone accuse him of supporting Trump? If an Irish fan thinks England will win at Twickenham at the weekend, does that mean they're supporting England? When Philip Nolan predicted 100k+ covid cases a day, did anyone accuse him of wanting 100k covid cases a day? No.



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