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Ukraine bans men aged between 18 and 60 from leaving the country (due to conscription)

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Maybe, but in Urban warfare, there isn't such a need to be so fit/battle trained. There have been many examples throughout modern history where the local population of an urban centre have managed to significantly maul a professional military.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,297 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I don’t get the point of the thread then to be honest. It’s in the Gentleman’s Club forum but seems to be more concerned with the idea that women aren’t conscripted as opposed to discussing the idea of men being conscripted? It’s bloody confusing to be honest.

    I’d care more if the the thread was just about the value or none of conscription as it pertains to men, but making the point that women aren’t conscripted just seems petty tbh, it’s kinda why I was thinking that surely can’t be the issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭iptba


    If say, women with no children were conscripted, fewer men with children (including some who are a primary caregiver) would have to be conscripted for similar numbers.


    And in general, the more women that are conscripted, the fewer men that need to be conscripted to get similar numbers.


    I've also seen people say that if women get conscripted, governments could be more reluctant to conscript at all. Or be quicker to stop wars, or change tactics, if they're coming home in body bags in significant numbers.

    Post edited by iptba on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭Sandor Clegane


    Be more in their line to send politicians to help the wounded, force them to do the fighting if they really believe in the cause, Vietnam was a war they shouldn't of been involved in, same as Iraq.

    That's why mandatory service and conscription is bollocks, you could get sent to fight in some bullshit phoney war and die for nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,297 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I think I see where you’re coming from, and it explains the confusion - we have different views on the underlying principles of conscription. You seem to be in favour of the idea to the degree that you’re arguing women, as well as men, should be conscripted, whereas I’d be of the opposite view that not only should women not be conscripted, men shouldn’t be conscripted either.

    I think Muhammad Ali’s views of the draft in America at the time of the Vietnam War sums it up better than I ever could -


    “Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go ten thousand miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights?

    No, I am not going ten thousand miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over. This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that to take such a stand would put my prestige in jeopardy and could cause me to lose millions of dollars which should accrue to me as the champion. 

    But I have said it once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is right here. I will not disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality…

    If I thought the war was going to bring freedom and equality to 22 million of my people they wouldn’t have to draft me, I’d join tomorrow. But I either have to obey the laws of the land or the laws of Allah. I have nothing to lose by standing up for my beliefs. So I’ll go to jail. We’ve been in jail for four hundred years.”


    https://alphahistory.com/vietnamwar/muhammad-ali-refuses-to-fight-1967/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭iptba


    There are basically two options relevant to this discussion if one doesn’t believe in conscription (or military service):


    - I don’t believe in conscription (or military service) but if some country decides to impose it, I think it should only apply to men, women should be exempt.


    or


    - I don’t believe in conscription (or military service) but if some country decides to impose it, I think neither gender should be exempt



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭iptba


    I suppose given the times we live in one could even add a third:

    - I don’t believe in conscription (or military service) but if some country decides to impose it, I think it should only apply to women, men should be exempt. [Sample justification: men were conscripted in the past so positive discrimination is justified, could change culture, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,569 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Gender quotas for conscription, for the day that's in it...



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well, honestly, I see no real difference between men and women, in terms of conscription. Perhaps this is due to having lived in Asia for so long, but if you look at many SE Asian countries they have a greater emphasis on women serving in the military. Such armies will still be stacked heavily towards male participation, but they don't have the same hangups that occur in the West about women serving as frontline troops.

    I'd be in favour of women sharing the same burden in terms of men facing conscription. Put men into the roles which they're particularly suited to (more physically demanding), and the same for women, who might hold fixed emplacements, or operate AA assets.

    Although, TBH I can't help thinking of myself and my male friends being conscripted. None of us are strong, or particularly fit. So, the gap between women and men being conscripted, there's a good chance that the women are fitter from the beginning, than many men out there. 😂



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,297 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    There’s a whole ton of options that anyone can consider? Conscription and military service are not the same thing in any case - I have the greatest of respect for anyone serving in the defence forces, I have many objections to conscription.

    Seeing as we’re in the Gentlemen’s Club forum, and conscription has historically applied to men, and it has been detrimental to men’s welfare, I don’t see how anything good can possibly come of forcing women to register for the draft. It’s the height of nonsense to suggest that extending conscription to women has anything to do with gender equality, whereas opposing the draft as it applies solely to men is in the interests of men’s welfare.

    That way everyone who wants to, gets to stay at home, regardless of their sex, and they don’t get involved in conflicts they didn’t start, and everyone has the choice as to whether or not they wish to join the defence forces and serve their country, knowing that there is a risk they may suffer with significant mental health issues in later life, if they don’t come home in a coffin.

    Who exactly benefits from seeing their loved ones suffer the effects of fighting in a war they didn’t want to be involved in, or burying their loved ones who were forced to fight? There’s absolutely no benefit either to men, to women, to anyone, of such a twisted way of presenting such an abhorrent concept as if it’s motivated by notions of gender equality.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That's so strange.

    You believe that women can hold their own in the military, but yet you believe that women in the police are just there taking up places that should be filled by men? Strange attitude.

    if it ever happens in this country, at least the women in the police will take their place, allowing you and your weaker friends of the same sex to hide/&or move to another country, as refugees.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    this woman has got bigger balls than any man esp any Russian man




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭iptba



    When Lepina shamed Klever, she was no longer in Ukraine herself.

    So a woman publicly outed a man for fleeing Ukraine and avoiding fighting when she had done something similar.

    Makes me think of the women including some suffragettes who during the First World War in the UK when they suspected the man/boy of avoiding conscription handed out a white feather.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather

    Although the draft would conscript both sexes, only males would be on the front lines.[8][9][10][check quotation syntax] While the true effectiveness of the campaign is impossible to judge, it spread throughout several other nations in the empire. In Britain, it started to cause problems for the government when public servants and men in essential occupations came under pressure to enlist. That prompted Home Secretary Reginald McKenna to issue employees in state industries with lapel badges reading "King and Country" to indicate that they were serving the war effort. Likewise, the Silver War Badge, which was given to service personnel who had been honourably discharged by wounds or sickness, was first issued in September 1916 to prevent veterans from being challenged for not wearing uniform.[7] Anecdotes from the time indicate that the campaign was not popular among soldiers, not least because soldiers who were home on leave could find themselves presented with feathers.


    One example was Private Ernest Atkins, who was on leave from the Western Front. He was riding a tram when he was presented with a white feather by a girl sitting behind him. He smacked her across the face with his pay book and said, "Certainly I'll take your feather back to the boys at Passchendaele. I'm in civvies because people think my uniform might be lousy, but if I had it on I wouldn't be half as lousy as you".[11]


    Private Norman Demuth, who had been discharged from the British Army after he had been wounded in 1916, received numerous white feathers after he returned from the Western Front. In Forgotten Voices of the Great War, Demuth is quoted as saying:


    "Almost the last feather I received was on a bus. I was sitting near the door when I became aware of two women on the other side talking at me, and I thought to myself, 'Oh Lord, here we go again'. One lent forward and produced a feather and said, 'Here's a gift for a brave soldier. I took it and said,'Thank you very much- I wanted one of those.' Then I took my pipe out of my pocket and put this feather down the stem and worked it in a way I've never worked a pipe cleaner before. When it was filthy I pulled it out and said, 'You know, we didn't get these in the trenches', and handed it back to her. She instinctively put out her hand and took it, so there she was sitting with this filthy pipe cleaner in her hand and all the other people on the bus began to get indignant. Then she dropped it and got up to get out, but we were nowhere near a stopping place and the bus went on quite a long way while she got well and truly barracked by the rest of the people on the bus. I sat back and laughed like mad."[12]


    Supporters of the campaign were not easily put off. A woman who confronted a young man in a London park demanded to know why he was not in the army. "Because I am a German", he replied. He received a white feather anyway.[13]


    Occasionally injured veterans were mistakenly targeted, such as Reuben W. Farrow who after being aggressively asked by a woman on a tram why he would not do his duty, turned around and showed his missing hand causing her to apologize.[7]


    Perhaps the most misplaced use of a white feather was when one was presented to Seaman George Samson, who was on his way in civilian clothes to a public reception being held in his honour for having been awarded the Victoria Cross for gallantry in the Gallipoli campaign.[14]


    Roland Gwynne, later the mayor of Eastbourne (1929–1931), received a feather from a relative. That prompted him to enlist, and he would receive the Distinguished Service Order for bravery.[15]

    The writer Compton Mackenzie, then[when?] a serving soldier, complained about the activities of the Order of the White Feather. He argued that "idiotic young women were using white feathers to get rid of boyfriends of whom they were tired".[16] The pacifist Fenner Brockway said he received so many white feathers that he had enough to make a fan.[citation needed]


    By the way, the Ukrainian woman caused "devastating consequences" for the man who fled:

    Klever’s mistake, which would bring devastating consequences, was writing to a friend about being smuggled out and making it to London.


    The friend betrayed his trust and posted their conversation on social media. It went viral, and Ukrainians all over the internet exploded with anger and resentment.


    “You are a walking dead person,” one Twitter message said. “I’m going to find you in any corner in the world.”

    Post edited by iptba on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    it seems Twitter is the modern day..white feather?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭iptba


    Men flee Russia to avoid mobilisation

    All flights from Russia to neighbouring countries sold out on Wednesday as Russians sought to flee a partial mobilisation order drafting 300,000 reservists into the army announced by Vladimir Putin.

    Fears that men of fighting age would not be allowed to leave the country began to spread as the Russian president ordered the call-up.

    Speaking to reporters on Wednesday, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov refused to say whether Russia would close its borders for those who are subject to mobilisation.

    https://twitter.com/i/events/1572471269341159424



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭iptba


    Swimming rivers and faking illness to escape Ukraine’s draft




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Gotta be honest, if Micheal Martin told me I needed to fight and die for Ireland, I would probably be on the first flight out of here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭nickkohl


    Forcing a human being to stay in warzone is a human rights violation.

    Lots of Ukrainian men don't want to flee..they want to stay and fight . I really admire their attitude ..and it looks like you would be doing the same if you were in their position ..As for me ..I wish I had the balls to stay but I'm a coward so I think I would want to flee . Maximum I could do was to join this initiative https://cartodonate.com .

    Post edited by nickkohl on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭iptba


    Ukraine military draft age lowered to boost fighting force

    Volodymyr Zelenskiy lowers minimum draft age from 27 to 25 and will reassess disability waivers

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/ukraine-military-draft-age-law

    "More than two years later, however, many of those initial recruits are dead, wounded or simply exhausted, and the army needs new recruits to fill the ranks. By now, most of those who want to fight have already signed up, leaving the military to recruit among a much more reluctant pool of men."

    "Viral videos have shown men snatched from the street to be conscripted"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,542 ✭✭✭BlackEdelweiss




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    I was!

    I believe the underestimation of Ukrainian determination and Russian dysfunction was a commonly made mistake.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,835 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Not a suitable thread for this forum. Locked.

    There are multiple refugee threads in the Current Affairs forum.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



This discussion has been closed.
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