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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I genuinely thought Sexton had more respect for himself, he's on a hiding to nothing by thinking he can still play International rugby up to and including the World Cup.

    I hope I'm wrong but I think he's setting himself up to be fall guy for Ireland in this campaign.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,999 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It's impossible to judge Healy properly because he's yet to show real quality in a big game, performances against URC cannon fodder don't really impact on national selection. I'm always saying it but if that was the measure, Ross Byrne would have 50 caps.

    Munster have a few crunch games coming up after the SA trip, i.e. Leinster, Exeter, Exeter and Ulster in successive weeks. We should get a better feel for what's what after those matches.



  • Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭roverjoyce


    What did he get an IRFU contract for?

    Did Leinster not want to have to pay for him? Jobs for the boys.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,360 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Because he’s Irelands captain and starting 10, I’d have thought that wouldn’t need any explanation but there you go.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,605 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    What did he get an IRFU contract for?

    playing rugby

    Did Leinster not want to have to pay for him?

    do you understand how contracts work? the IRFU pays either way

    Jobs for the boys.

    correct, its mens rugby which sexton plays



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭PMC83


    More respect for himself? What are you on about? Like it or not hes still the best option at 10 and well above the rest. This has become pretty clear. If he's playing like he is right now why wouldn't you start him? The only way he becomes the fall guy is if his forms drops off a cliff and he hangs onto the jersey anyway like Best did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    In some peoples minds he would be even if he never got on the plane. Doubt he’ll lose a seconds sleep over it though.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,837 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    "the IRFU pays either way" is not really accurate, to be honest.

    IRFU money only pays a portion of non-central deals, the remainder must be paid by the province from their own income. The amount paid by the IRFU depends on the player's status, all contracts are categorised into a number of buckets, e.g. peripheral test player, regular provincial player, development player, NIQ player.



  • Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭roverjoyce


    Central contracts were for keeping players in Ireland, Sexton is going nowhere so doesn't need one

    He should be on a pay for play at his age not a central contact, do they ever learn lessons, Rory Best from the last world cup.

    So Leinster have no budgets for players, could they afford to pay all their central contact players?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭ersatz


    No argument from me on that question, Healy is a better player from what Ive seen, but it's URC level. From an Irish coaching pov JC is solid if not very inspiring, while Healy is completely unproven.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Barring winning the W/C we're going to lose a game, probably another Q/F and when that happens the knives will be out once more.

    Sexton at 38 will get an easy target by then.

    As I say hopefully not but media and fans can be fickle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I think you're being over sensitive to my post.

    But I agree with you I doubt Sexton will lose too much sleep over what post mortems are held on our performances during the W/Cup



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    I don’t think I’m being sensitive at all. It’s an observable phenomenon on here and on social media. That there is a section of people who absolutely hate Sexton. If his form slips, they will be very vocal in blaming him for any failings of the Irish team.

    As things stand he is very comfortably the best 10 in the country. However at his age he could very easily fall off a steep cliff. We all know it’s a huge risk but no one is stepping up to replace him. So if we end up with him as or starting 10 in 18 months time. It won’t be his fault.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,605 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The irfu own the provinces, so no matter what way the books are balanced, the irfu will be paying Sexton wages, as they do for every other professional player in the country.

    We don't have a pay cap here, so it is completely irrelevant in terms of club balance sheets whether sexton, or any other player, is on a central contract or not. The central contract system is designed to keep our best players here.

    Who's to say Sexton wasnt offered a few hundred thousand to join the likes of bordeaux (see trinh duc) or the steelers as Carter did



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    The problem is that should Ireland do poorly people may blame Sexton regardless of how he himself plays.

    BTW, it's not just Sexton who's hated by a few fans and there's a lot of players out there who are targeted when teams lose. I suppose that the nature of social media



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,579 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I don't think the union has much of a choice. Sexton at 36 is better than all our other 10's. By a good margin. It's not ideal, we have failed to produce quality 10's. Sexton could be crap in a years time, or he could still be playing well. The draw we have will be our downfall. Very tough ask and if we don't get past the qf's, it's likely to be due to depth moreso,, than Sexton.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If I was picking a world best 15, he'd be my starting 10 and probably captain.

    Best player we've ever produced.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Maybe for a 1 off match, fully fit.

    But I'm not sure id be picking him as captain and guaranteed starter for a 6/7 week tournament where he is needed to play 4 or 5 games.

    Making someone else like ryan captain after this six nations means we can potentially use sexton for the last 30 minutes off the bench similar to the Italy game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    My only hope is that his form doesn’t slip to the point to tarnish his legacy.

    if we don’t get past a quarter the seagulls will sh1t on everyone, not just Sexton.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,837 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This again is not accurate. The IRFU pay 100% of central contract wages. Provincial contracted players are funded based on category, with each province funded to the same amount. The provinces need to make their own money on top of this to fund further contracts or top up existing ones. E.g. the IRFU might pay 150k a year toward a provincial player who is on the periphery of the test squad, if Leinster want to pay him 300k a year they need to find that 150k themselves, it does not come from the IRFU.

    It is absolutely relevant whether Sexton, or any other player, is on a central contract or not. Obviously the more central players you have the less salary top ups you need to fund within your squad, but in exchange you will have the game time of the player heavily managed and expect to lose them numerous times during the season.

    It is incredibly disingenuous to suggest that the IRFU pay all the players so it makes no difference, I would go as far as to say it's an obfuscation of reality. The IRFU do own all the provinces, but the IRFU, in the context being discussed here (i.e. as a central rugby union) do not fund 100% of the playing costs of the provinces.

    That all said, in regards to Sexton it's a moot point, he was never getting anything other than a central deal, firstly because he's the captain and secondly because he'll probably make more Ireland appearances for the rest of his career than Leinster ones.

    It would be completely bizarre for the guy who is still #1 in his position, captain of the squad and who needs to be very carefully managed to be bumped down to a provincial deal.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    in the context being discussed here (i.e. as a central rugby union) do not fund 100% of the playing costs of the provinces.

    That’s simply not true though. The IRFU fund the provinces. The vast majority of the revenue is from the international game. If they decided to change the model and fund provinces proportionate to contribution to the national team. Leinster would receive the majority of that funding.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,837 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    The IRFU do not fund the provinces in entirety.

    As I’ve said twice now, they pay 100% of central deals and a value of the rest; the total of “the rest” is equal across each province.

    The rest of the money for players comes from the provinces own income.

    Leinster do receive a lot more than anyone else, but that’s just because they have so many central players where 100% of the cost is covered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    That’s not the way it works though. The provinces don’t fund themselves. All money goes to the IRFU and budgets are allocated to the provinces. None of the provinces are even close to self funding.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    If you were picking a world 15 for a match in 18 months or so would you have Sexton on it?


    I certainly wouldn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I think awecs point is that things like sponsorship revenues etc that the provinces bring in they get to keep. And some of those revenues go toward player budgets. So the IRFU don’t pay 100% of the player costs, some does get covered by provincial revenues.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,837 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Correct, I am not saying the provinces are self funding at all. Quite the opposite.

    Completely made up numbers:

    Imagine the IRFU have 15 centrally contracted players, all on 500k a year. There's 7.5 million.

    The IRFU give each province 3 million for their player budget, which adds up to 12 million in total.

    Between their season ticket sales, the ticket sales for their Aviva games, sponsorships, retail sales and business partnerships Leinster bring in 10 million a year. This is their money.

    Take the likes of Josh Van der Flier. Leinster want to pay him 400k a year. He gets a provincial contract and he's in the senior player / test player bracket, which means that the IRFU will pay up to 200k of his salary. This 200k comes out of the 3 million budget mentioned above. The other 200k has to come out of Leinster's 10mill income.

    Another example Nathan Doak. Ulster want to pay him 150k a year. As a league regular the IRFU will pay him up to 100k a year, and this comes out of Ulster's 3 million IRFU money. The other 50k needs to come from Ulster's own income.

    There are a number of buckets that contracts fall into, senior / test players (e.g. JVDF, Doris), league / europe regulars (e.g. Cooney, McGrath), Junior / development (e.g. Doak, Casey) and NIQ.

    It does make a difference to have more central contract players, it will save you a lot of money on wages that you can spend elsewhere in the squad, but on the flip side it also means you have a lot of players who will be missing for big chunks of the season.

    Operationally, I believe the way it actually works is that the IRFU pay all of the money to the players (so players don't get an IRFU pay slip and a Leinster pay slip), but then the provinces are sent a bill at the end of the season to reimburse the IRFU for their share of the wages for the season.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,999 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    There are three scenarios for RWC 2023, in order of probability

    1. Sexton is still our best out-half and plays
    2. Sexton is still our best out-half but is injured
    3. Sexton declines significantly and someone else improves massively to take the jersey

    I could well see Sexton declining over the next 18 months but I'm not sure where the improvement in a rival is going to come from.

    Either way, he had to be kept on next season. It would be madness not to.

    Post edited by Former Former Former on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    People have been writing of Sexton for a lot longer than that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    All the revenue that comes in goes into the IRFU and is then redistributed. The money for winning the league or European Cup, goes to the IRFU not Leinster. The money for the TV deals with the URC goes to the IRFU not the provinces directly. This is all then topped up with money from the national team.

    Wether the sponsorship money and gate receipts stay with the clubs and are then factored into how much money is allocated. I’m not sure but the operating budgets for each province are set by the IRFU.

    It doesn’t matter where the money is generated. It is all IRFU money. The vast majority of the revenue still lies with the international game, no matter what way you look at it.

    The idea that Leinster gain some unfair advantage because they contribute the most to generating the money. Is in my opinion just wrong. Be it through central contracts or whatever other way it gets distributed, it’s about how the revenue is generated and one way or another Leinster are responsible for generating a lot more.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    STH, gate receipts and sponsorship deals money is retained by the provinces



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