Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Shure no one actually has videos of people dying in gas chambers. Ya people say it happened and we have videos of people going in and out of concentration camps.

No "proof" of the potato famine either. Just a load of people walking out of Ireland.

How can did you manage to type that with your fingers stuck in your ears while shouting Na Na I can't hear you!! At the top of your voice?

Well I, like you, am no expert. However listening to those experts who have forgotten more about Ukraine and Russia than you and I will ever know, a lot could have been done to avoid war that wasn’t. Such as guarantees on Ukrainian non membership of NATO.

They have been there a bit more than 3 days mate and have made little ground.

I mean they started right next to Kyiv which is the key point to take. It isn't like they had to travel end to end or anything.

Here is one FYI - the fact is we know about this story because it was reported on - in western media. This is the point i tried to make RE our media - we know about their mistakes, as they, invariably end up reporting on them

As for the story on the hospital, it is sadly true - and being responded to globally now - Sky, BBC, AFP and Reuters - i havent checked RTE but i can only imagine. As a father, i am hoping we DO NOT actually see young children, babies and pregnant mothers bodies. Apparently some people (not suggesting this of you btw), will not be satisfied unless they are presented with such evidence. One wonders whether such individuals doubt the death toll from 9/11, given that (sadly), many victims bodies were utterly disintegrated during that appalling act of barbarism. If provided with such evidence in this case, one wonders whether they will sleep again (if they ever did)

In terms of Good faith. No, of course i am not the arbiter, no one is. No such arbiter exists @SafeSurfer. Good faith is simply a mindset and a group of behavioral norms, through which we should be conversing. The rules are simply there to ensure that dialogue is had, fairly, equitably.

We just try to behave ourselves in a sane way for a start. We attempt to offer our arguments sincerely - we dont intend to deliberately antagonize and opponent or fellow debater/Poster. Nor do we deliberately mislead or lie, or spread verified falsehoods. It does not mean, we dont get things wrong. It does not mean, getting something wrong, is a cardinal offence either. It just means we should argue in good faith, with command of the facts as we have them. And be willing to offer evidence to substantiate claims we may make. If the facts we have turn out NOT to be true (You might imagine someone arguing on the Kuwait Baby story - thinking it were true) - that person has not actually argued in bad faith. as an example i mean.

Good faith is just playing the game of interactions with some amount of integrity.

Thats my take on it- i have never had it explained to me btw - so welcome some (good faith) disagreements on it- i have always viewed my interactions to be in good faith because i apply the same rules/ethos i did in college, when debating, or submitting papers

• I think before i type
• I check my sources -
• I ask 'is this useful' and 'is it necessary to include this' - does this ADD to the argument and is it warranted
• I try to fully understand what it is i am responding to - 'Steel manning' it to a certain extent - what is she/he saying, and what is there that i can take genuine issue with

yea look, i am not perfect - i try

IMHO

That's wouldn't have stopped it , putin wants to bring back all former Soviet union States back under Russian occupation ,there was nothing that could have prevented this war ,bar the removal of putin 4 weeks ago.

This doesn't end at ukraine ,no matter what people think should be aggreed to

Cant believe i am doing this but here goes

The BBC have verified that, yes, that is a hospital - the buildings location is verified and matched with the footage. (see links provided)

Is it your position that we should assume the hospital was empty? In a time of war? Is that what you are suggesting?

Will you NOT accept that people died (innocent men women and children, and babies) until such time as we are presented with gruesome and graphic footage? Who will take this footage? I have seen some (not of this incident) gruesome footage over on the other thread (sadly i cannot un-see it)

If (understandably) the major media channels will NOT show footage described above - but some does leak out on twitter - will you refuse to acknowledge that men, women, children, babies, and unborn - died? What if they show Women and children, but not pregnant women and Men - will you then state - NO - men, and unborn, did NOT die -simply because you cannot see the bodies?

Do you apply the same standards to other situations? Accidents and reported violence and murder? Do you NEED TO SEE the bodies to acknowledge them?

Im trying (genuinely) to understand what you are asking for

Finally - where did anyone state thousands of Children? I doubt anyone did but, if they did, please provide the post?

The US didnt sent in lightly armed paratroops against a dug in military.

They took out defences with massive air campaign.

They didnt send in military police before their main military to be taken out.

Which is the question you have been running away from all day with smokescreens and semantics.

You presented a picture for this being all deliberate Russian plan utterly without supporting evidence and are completely unable to engage with the holes pointed out in it except to deny deny deny. People see right through your ostrich in the sand approach.

It has been documented and when shown you called it propaganda and lies.

Also how easy is it to whip out your phone and video as Russians are raining bombs on children. Please do tell us about your experience in these situations.

The Russian lies are becoming so outrageous, its clear that they longer care if they are plausible or not. First Drug-addicted Nazis, next Jihadis fighting for the Ukrainians. They're trying on now some story about Ukraine secretly making nuclear weapons and even making biological WMDs in a secret lab. Apparently some of the American right-wing crazies are swallowing the last one.

Hitler wasn't clinically insane. Neither was Francisco Solano Lopez, Nicholas the Second or Hong Xiuquan. Yet they managed to bring-or nearly bring-their countries down into ruin.