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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    I agree tomorrow is a massive match in the context of how this team is playing and how effective it can be against the better sides.

    I also agree there has been many selection mistakes made by Farrell in the past (Stockdale, Finlay, Earls, Murray, Burns etc) & i would be the first to critisicse.

    e.g. I still think it's a shortsighted to be persisting with Sexton in a starting role and as a captain. Is it a mistake? Depends if you are willing to sacrifice winning now for a potential gain. I can 100% understand Farrell selecting him and it has been finally justified since Nov. Also didnt agree with moving Porter to LH. Didnt think Keenan would make a real international FB. But again i can understand the logic and it has been vindicated.

    But it has to be said Farrell has improved as a selector (albeit he has gone all in on Leinster personnel and style of play). But fair is fair he has got the team he wants and has been consistent in his selections. There is a sound logic.

    I can understand why he wants PO'M for this game. Yes it is a change from vdF, Dorris, Conan but PO'M has been the bench cover. I dont agree with Murray selection but again it's consistent.

    If the wheels fall off tomorrow there should be a rightful inquisition. I think Ireland will win and i do hope they are the more mentally robust team to stick in the game. I put a good bit of stock in what Sexton said after NZ game in Autumn.

    “We weren’t clinical in the first half but then, fair play. This team has worked a hell of a lot on our mental side of the game so to bounce back and come again was testament to the management and leadership group and the players themselves to come back and be clinical in the second half.

    “Because previously, we would have said ‘Ah, we didn’t take our chances’ and we would have . . . not given up but we would have put the heads down a bit. But we kept pounding away and we got our rewards.”

    Having said that: 1st team to score a try will prob be the match winner!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    In short it's if it's been 3 years since your last cap and a "meaningful connection" to the country.

    Freddie has Irish heritage via his Grandfather born in Dublin. And a brother whose been capped by Ireland.

    If he were to play in Ireland he'd be a fairly open and shut case for this new eligibility.

    Yes the rule is aimed towards weaker countries being able to recruit stronger players but they'd need to apply this rule consistently across the board.

    Moot anyway. If Ireland wanted a middling 10 in their 30s who hasn't been capped in several years they'd be looking at Ian Madigan



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    And yet Leinster has used him in 31 European games and chose him ahead of Carbery. Are they wrong?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you’re making out tho.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,605 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    If URC was ross burnes level you wouldn't have the Montpellier head coach blowing roses up his ass after byrnes performances against Monty.


    Byrne is a very credible heinken cup level out half, I would suggest he's better than most of the 10s that play for English and French clubs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,999 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Yeah, R Byrne is well capable but there's no real reason to think he's international level.

    He's no better or worse than Carty really, but ultimately that's not what's needed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    That’s about his level though. Good enough to get you to the knock out stages in Europe. Could do a job in some international games but not up to the top level physically. In that he is just to slow to seriously interest defenses. Still think he has the best game management of any of the tens bar Sexton. Pity he doesn’t have Harry’s athleticism.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I never said RB was URC level tho, that was TRC.

    Just making the point that saying “Leinster chose RB over Carbery” is overly simplistic.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,605 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Ah I know, I was just continuing the conversation but was too lazy to go back a page and quote TRC so I quoted you instead.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    On Ross Byrne - I think he stayed ahead of Carbery because he was a more reliable player in a team with a dominant pack, not that he was a better player or had a higher ceiling. Carbery did and still does make a lot of mistakes and we saw against Italy that he couldn't build upon our forward packs dominance or create gaps around the park when against 13 men. I think there is hope that more game time will get him there, but Ross Byrne can do those things at club level now (hasn't done it at International either).

    Same issue with Carty, individually a more skilful player than Byrne but more error prone. I think Byrne does more for Leinster than Carbery or Carty do for their provinces. I think Carbery has had by far the best performance of any of them in green and that's why he will in the 23 moving forward. I'd probably opt for Carty over Byrne at International level but would be almost a coin toss.

    tldr Byrne a more consistent and less error strewn nuts and bolts 10 who struggles to deliver at International level, Carbery & Carty more athletic ball players but more likely to deliver a breakdown in play or a loss of territory.



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  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭fitz


    Has Byrne ever really had an opportunity at international level where we weren't getting beaten up, though? Genuine question, I can't recall all his caps, but I don't know that he's ever had a shot where any of the other 10s would have been any way better. I think he's harshly judged, tbh, but the coaching team must have their reasons.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Only game he has started was against England and we did get beaten up that day. Full breakdown here with his one start bolded:

    2018 v Italy (Chicago) W 54-7 (R)

    2018 v U.S.A. (Dublin) W 24-14 (R)

     

    2019 v England (Twickenham) L 15-57 (R)


    2020 v Scotland (Dublin) W 19-12 (SN) (R)

    2020 v Wales (Dublin) W 24-14 (SN) (R)

    2020 v England (Twickenham) L 12-24 (SN)

    2020 v Georgia (Dublin) W 23-10 (ANC) (R)

    2020 v Scotland (Dublin) W 31-16 (ANC) (R)


    2021 v Scotland (Murrayfield) W 27-24 (SN) (R)

    2021 v England (Dublin) W 32-18 (SN) (R)

    (R) = Replacement.

    He's played a few Heineken cup games for Leinster where we haven't had anything like all are own way and he's been effective but never quite that threat you really want at first receiver or link man to beat the best teams. I'm saying this as a fan of Ross Byrne, he's a smart player and watching him play you can see he has benefited hugely from playing alongside Sexton, but game control is where he is strongest and he's more conservative than Sexton in terms of what he will attempt in a game.

    The line speed at the top level of rugby just seems to rob him of a lot of what makes him effective at most levels of the game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭LRind2008


    Ireland gonna get beat by 14 here ....laugheable



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Would rather play with 14 men and have complete scrum dominance than play with 15 men and have no set piece.

    Definitely something we need to look at, Scotland will target that all day next week.

    Left a bunch of scores out there due to lack of patience.

    England completely up for that but couldn't score a try.

    Lot's of talking points from that to be honest, I think we today realised that Kelleher and Porter are pretty important to our front scrum consistency.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    A lot of work ons for this game like Venjur has pointed out. We definitely miss the extra physicality which Porter and Kelleher provide.

    POM and Beirne are classy footballers, but to me it seemed that both really struggled to make an impact in open play. Don't think we can start with both in the same side.

    I thought our back three were excellent. They simply must be the starting trio for the Scotland game. Keenan is our best 15 by a mile and that's not a slight on Lowry either. He's a wonderful player. No weaknesses.

    Lowe has the great ability to ride tackles and keep atta is going when really they should've died out. Conway is great under the high ball and has an excellent kicking game. There's great balance to that trio.

    Post edited by Clegg on


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Different ref is not going to let their loosehead step across all day and penalize us, when he should be penalizing them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tooka


    I posted previously I thought the front row bench and Murray would be a weakness

    I was wrong, they won the game for us



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,465 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I don't think POM should be starting at all, would say you can only afford to have one of them at a time. The drop in impact is too great. Beirne goes best hanging back waiting for an opportunity to poach. Relies on other lads doing the heavy hitting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    Flannery “...the scrum is fixable. Tadgh Furlong is the best tighthead in the world. He won’t be happy with that”.

    Its like Flannery never watched the match.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I agree I thought he was very poor.. had zero positive impact on the game. Another id like to see gone for yhe scotland game next week is Aki. Thought he was very poor. Henshaw was much better in the 15 minutes he played.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Meant to post this here rather than the match thread.

    We genuinely missed Ryan. He's not as big as Henderson but I think he's every bit as physical and also tidier at the lineout, which definitely struggled in his absence.

    Beirne at lock just doesn't do it for me. I've seen it in games against Leinster especially where he just just doesn't have the mass to impose himself in tighter areas. He's a backrow forward for me. Excellent at running those shirt lines and busting a tackle. But don't ask him to get into an arm wrestle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭jimdemp


    Henderson is allowed 1 poor game. He has played very little rugby and i cant remember the last time he played poorly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭jimdemp


    Loosehead back up is a issue. Second row is also a issue maybe joe McCarthy will be ready by the time world cup comes around. Sexton offers very little outside of loop arounds and goal kicking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Josh Van Der Flier has been our best player this tournament and I think must be in the conversation for one of the best backrows in the world on current form.

    He struggled to make an impact with his carrying for a lot of the game. England had him marked out as a threat and made sure to double up in the tackle.

    But when we needed a big impact he gave us one. It was 15-18 in the 72nd minute. We had gone through 11 phases of attack but it was going nowhere. We'd been pushed out of the England 22. VDF got the ball, carried and was hit hard again. But this time he kept his feet and kept charging after the initial hit. He made 5 metres with two England players pushing against him. Got us back into the 22 and from the very next phase of play Keenan put Ringrose through and then to Conway which led to the Conan try.

    It was a decisive contribution from VDF when we needed it most.

    Post edited by Clegg on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,931 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Yes because it's much harder to look good when you come on with 15 to go against an exhausted opposition than to play 65 against a manic team with fire in their balls.....Not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Henshaw is irelands current player of the year and started 3 tests on the lions tour.

    Aki isn't at the same level. Looks to be carrying an injury.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,465 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Thought Aki went better than Ringrose myself. His distribution was good, made some excellent passes out wide.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    Today Dooley is defo knocking on the door behind Porter, Killer and Healy are past

    Can't wait to see if Thornbury comes back as strong as he was before injury, right on time for Euro knock-out stages, giving himself a chance for the Irish Summer squad and more..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Healy struggled today. Got caught in no mans land at one point when England had the ball but it was his two carries leading up to Keenan's try that painted the prevailing picture for me. First carry he made no ground at all running onto the ball. Second carry he spilled in contact having made no ground (albeit England were offside so we had an advantage).

    He just doesn't have the physical presence and dynamism for the most physical teams. He's still bench option for me but I'd question if he makes it to the World Cup. Killcoyne has never really had the physicality but he did a job when he came on at least.

    Not sure Dooley will fill that void, could do with someone coming through pretty quickly though or Jack McGrath rediscovering form.

    Bealham going great, has really solidified his place in the 23.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,821 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    That went well for you.

    You must be fierce embarrassed after posting that shíte.



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