Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

DoD needs a new photocopier....

Hahaha love it…

€289.

Nice commemorative piece it is too. I may treat myself.

Primary Radar and sonar capabilities would be a nice (and basic) addition.

I'm sure when the Defence Forces assess they they may have to face an armoured tank division or two at some early date, then the phone to Ankara will be ringing off the hook.

I think that would only work if we were to be buying Typhoons or ex RAF aircraft which is possible but i doubt it will happen as there aircraft are being replaced or have an astronomical amount of fly hours on them. Why the valleys? I'm assuming you are talking about mach loop...we have our own mountainous terrain. The Fougas trained in Wicklow and used the Dublin mountains from time to time. That type of training is purely low level radar avoidance and recon which the A/C will most definitely will not be doing at the moment. We need to stay realistic as these new aircraft will be on used for QRA and Recon over water missions for vessels etc. Usually when you purchase such aircraft the seller would rather you train with there instructors. Gripen for example has a program that they train you on there aircraft as you buy, that's what they did with Czech and Hungarian pilots. I believe Brazilian pilots brought Gripen instructors to Brasilia to train them on there soil while the aircraft were in transit via ships. Sweden trains pilots for there aircraft in Satenas. Everything above is heresay for now though as the training maintenance and overall outlook of the purchases completely depends on the sale agreement and the terms of purchase or lease.

Would it not be beneficial to be trained up on the aircraft that you will actually be flying? We have the training aircraft at the moment as our main aircraft in the PC-9 which is trainer. We are only new to buying fast aircraft it would be beneficial to walk before we run on it.

The last international pilots to use Anglesey base was the Royal Saudi Air Force but this training was done as part of there purchase of Tornado and Typhoon aircraft from the UK which circles back to my original point.

It will all depend on the purchase/sale agreement, I.E. Buy Swedish you get trained by Swedish. Again it’s hearsay until they find an aircraft. Or if they want to find an aircraft, they are dragging there heels at the moment.

Hmm. Think thats a bit pessimistic. Depends on supplier. I don't think we can wait ten years. Need them ASAP.

Feel free to criticise this but would it not make more sense to join NATO first to give us the backing of a military alliance, and then start building our defence with the addition of primary radar and sonar, instead of spending millions on a few typhoons (or whatever jets we are talking about getting) that wouldn’t give as big a deterrent as being in NATO would?

The very first thing joining NATO would mean is moving to the 2% spend, which is twice what the LoA3 suggests (ie circa €6 billion), moreover while there is support for greater EU related defence, there’s still a majority against NATO.

Depends on the supplier?

We don't even have a customer yet!

And stop talking toss about random RAF stations as just because they are close by, it's just more random nonsense.

In the cases where European countries like Hungary and the Czech Republic have acquired leased jets and so on, the introductory training has taken place at the supplier sites and later in the host Country with simulators and' train the trainers' programmes.

As it stands we have scarcely enough pilots to fly all the PC9s at once, let alone enough trained to a technical competency to head off for jet conversion.

Sparky is right about AC jets being 10 years away, and the only way that changes is if the European security environment deteriorates so badly and so quickly that we are forced to invite in someone like the French or Swedish Air Force to operate homeland defence and CAP from the island of Ireland, if there are Russian Air force assets roaming around attacking all Western assets they can find.

Not that I think the Russians would get more than 10 miles from their own border in that event, far superior NATO air forces and ground based defences would obliterate them.

Considering that a) we do our own basic flight training in fixed and rotary at Baldonnell and b) we have no cross-typing with the Royal Air Force, nor is there any in our foreseeable future (we will never operate Typhoons), then RAF Valley might as well be on the feckin moon.

Hell, we've even sent novice pilots to Australia and Texas or Tennessee or some place to train rather than have them embedded with the RAF! Hypocritical? Probably, but it is what it is.

Hawk T2, the more advanced glass cockpit version is scheduled to remain in service until 2040 for LIFT work, which just happens to be what we would be in the market for.

Also, given the production backlogs for some of the types we might be looking at, I wouldn't yet rule out Typhoon if the higher per hour costs were greatly offset by a temptingly low acquisition cost for some second hand machines.

I haven't read anyone here advocating for the purchase of jet trainer aircraft. A simply pointless waste of money for airshow capability. Sending pilots abroad for LIFT is what is in discussion and it's not altogether a bad idea.

In the PC-9 we possess an advanced training aircraft. It is not a Lead in Fighter Trainer. That is the domain of more advanced types like the M346, Hawk T2 and the PC21. Indeed, pilots in France trained on the PC21 encounter a jet for the first time when the strap into a Rafale. To go from PC-9 to any potential fighter however, would need a bridging LIFT course. It is not about performance(PC9 and PC21 are broadly similar), it is about the software elements in the avionics package that allow an aircraft to perform those training scenarios crucial for operation of an advanced fighter type. A PC21 can simulate weapons release, provide scoring and impact accuracy assessment - without even the capability to hang any armament under the wings. It's software can mimic the type of aircraft the pilot is expected to go on to operate, be it Gripen, Rafale or Typhoon. It is streets ahead of the PC9s in service.

Until we possess such a capability(the PC21 is absolutely the right aircraft for the job in time) it makes perfect sense to send pilots elsewhere for that portion of their training. The options available are really only two locations - RAF Valley and NFTC in Cold Lake, Canada -where Nato and non Nato pilots receive LIFT also on Hawks but pilots go on to operate a plethora of types so don't worry about a Typhoon orientated course.

This should be done as soon as possible alongside a general ramp up in pilot recruitment and training, in advance of any selection of aircraft type - which will no doubt be a protracted process. It would allow a handful of pilots to be seconded abroad for valuable fast jet experience and increase the pool of expertise for aircraft selection and procedural and tactical development over the coming years. The recruitment of experienced pilots and techs from overseas air forces is also something that could be considered to expediate the launching of a new fighter capability.

I stand to be corrected here but I believe the RAF only train pilots when purchasing an aircraft jointly made in the UK or solely made in the UK. Canada and UK along with New Zealand and Australia do this training conjunction with the BCATP and is logged with the UK Military Flying Training System. I cannot see benefit of sending them to RAF when the documents published by the Government (A/C) making no reference to buying aircraft there. Especially, not just use the valleys.

Its not that simple to just send our pilots to the RAF to train, I know one of the pilots that went to Australia to train on there Hercs and P8 for flying hours. The amount paperwork to just get them out there was ridiculous, because of our defense legislation the cabinet has to give approval before members of the permanent Defence Force can be sent outside the State for training. This took months to even arrange i think it was minister Kehoe at the time.

Under a sale agreement it would supersede the cabinet approval meaning the training before the purchase wouldnt make much sense time wise as the platforms with LIFT may not be suffient for the type of aircraft they end up buying.

As Dohville alluded to further up the thread, the aircraft being use in the UK by the RAF are near enough the same platforms so it would be no benefit.

Mentioned in the report is a Gripen which train there pilots in Sweden on the SK60 that is only a 2 hour flight away if distance is of relevance. The JAS-39 aircraft is financially and physically the best fit for purpose IMO.