Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

@Gatling @odyssey06

Folks im genuinely posting in good faith, And i mean no offense. I feel for you both, if you go back a few days. You will see that I, like you, tried in vain to argue with certain posters. It is of no use.

• Every time you make a sound logical point, the user(s) deflect. They change topic or stance, and begin arguing on a subtly different topic.
• Whataboutery is a way of life for these users. EVEN IF you make your point to such a degree that it CANNOT POSSIBLY be refuted - they will 'whatabout' you down a different rabbit hole.
• They employ a total double standard when it comes to evidence. You provide sane facts. They will (google frantically before) providing some dated article in support of their claims.
• You have won this debate - Unfortunately the users in question have not noticed this. and they never will. Its analogous of a boxing match where one fighter is being repeatedly punched in the face. but at the end of every round, they throw their hands in the air in triumph.
• All i can tell you is, that i resisted the urge to hit the ignore switch - but when i FINALLY DID - I felt better. The users in question become like white noise. Easily ignored.
• I hope i havent caused offense folks. needless to say you know who's side im on - but please do consider tapping that ignore box.
• Come back, and join the rest of us for some decent rules based debate, in good faith. Your contributions are needed.
• with genuine respect and sincerity

Decent interview from a few days ago. You could say its old given the momentum in this conflict. But it discusses both military and political matters. The interviewer is decent too, i found his questioning was focused. nothing worse than an interviewer who takes over the conversation.

Im still seeing nothing firm RE the 'china question' btw - its all speculation thus far. There was a statement from US state department earlier, but incredibly speculative.

You're all wasting your typing fingers.

The West and the majority of the global community is aligned with Ukraine, simple as. Putin did that.

Ukraine are the good guys. Russia, having invaded an independent Country, are the bad guys. Putin did that too.

The Azov Batallion could ride into Donetsk and massacre 10 schools worth of children and they still wouldn't be scrutinised for war crimes because Ukraine are operating only on their own territory and that gives them a legitimacy to do whatever it takes to repel the invaders and the insurgents.

Whatever. It. Takes.

No. That’s not what I said. The incidence are included in the UN report I linked to.

Also Amnesty International, US Congress Report etc.

Look if you are convinced the Azov battalion don’t commit war crimes just as you are convinced there are no foreign fighters in their ranks that’s fine.

And you are entirely correct, the separatists in east Ukraine are nasty mofos who are guilty of war crimes also. In reality both sides have committed war crimes. I believe Ukraine, Europe and the world would be a better, safer place without extremists like the Avoz battalion.

We have seen a very similar situation before where weapons were pumped into a war zone in which extremists were a small percentage of the defenders. Those extremists went on to have a much bigger impact on all our lives over the past 20 years than we could ever have imagined.

In hindsight was it in the wests best interest to help support the Mujahideen knowing that their ultimate enemy, the ones who they would eventually turn their weapons on was ourselves?

That’s a bit melodramatic. He wouldn’t even feature in the top ten in the last hundred years. And I’m most certainly not defending him just calling out hysterics

The west aren’t going to move in. The only way to end this conflict is through a negotiated settlement. I don’t see how either side can achieve a military victory.

How do you negotiate when Putin disgards agreements if it doesn't suit him? Whta value would it have? A short peace followed by a more organized invasion 12 months later.

Syrians are the "wrong" colour unfortunately.

Theyve said from the start their goal is "demilitarization" and a neutral (non-NATO aligned) Ukraine, so Russia will just bomb them into submission effectively. We can all see that occupation is a non-runner, it likely is not the goal either. Everything done so far is to gain leverage for negotiations so that Zelensky will agree to terms (Crimea, LPR, DPR and no military alliances).

Putin is very shrewd and knows the West well. He has had little problem openly using chemical weapons, whether it's on people in the UK, or on his own opposition. Assad, backed extensively by Russia, is estimated to have used chemical weapons around 70 times in Syria. There was no coherent strong response from the West in the same way there wasn't a strong response to the annexation of Crimea by Putin or his proxy war in S.E Ukraine. The UK PM has been forced to admit as such.

Unfortunately for Putin all those weak responses seem to have bred too much confidence, and has caused him to make a massive miscalculation with his biggest move yet, his "final solution" for Ukraine. Russia is now in a very serious economic, political and military quagmire.

Yes, I'm very wary of any 'negotiation' with Putin. It would be like one country 'negotiating' with Hitler in the middle of WW2 and asking him to withdraw his troops. Putin has shown his true colours and any agreement would hardly be worth the paper it was written on. What would be to stop him reinvading Ukraine in a year's time or going into Georgia or Moldova?

Why would he invade the Ukraine in 2022?

Moldova is already sprinting towards any agreement that would give it western protection as quick as it can. Will Putin settle for that he likely sees it as a Russian province that is being unruly? He has made repeated plays for Georgia before.

He has invaded before and is a large risk to do so again unless concrete protections are put in place.