You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the right.

One eyed Jack · 14-03-2022 3:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118781762#Comment_118781762

Pretty much exactly what I expected to see. Both in the content and where it originated from.

But what I am referring to in the OP is the dangers that have still emerged because of the support and input from many on the right, even if not at the extreme. And if they are not great in number, which I am still willing to believe could be the case, they are in impact, and that is the problem.

Did also want to comment on your summation that my view is 'respect your betters', again, they are your words, not mine. We were led to believe that people on the right are big proponents of the 'facts over feelings' approach, surely then they should be arguing in favour of listening to those educated, experienced and active in a field rather than just some of the cuff opinion. No?

I know where you’re coming from, and that’s why I pointed out that your perspective is no different than the people you’re critical of who do not share your opinions, who are who are the equivalent of your political opposites to exactly the same degree. That’s how the horseshoe theory applies - I didn’t say anything about extremes on either side of the political divide either. I was making the same point that you are, only from the opposite perspective.

The difference between us is that I don’t see any danger to society in anyone having a different opinion from my own. It’s for this reason that contrary to your assertion that anyone should defer to people who are better educated and have more experience, I do not suggest anyone should do any such thing. It’s why whatever you claim you were led to believe is not what I was led to believe, because I was able to see the opinions of the types of idiot announcing “facts over feelings” and so on, for what they were, instead of relying on those people as some form of moral authority. I am by no means unique in that regard, which is why most people do not gravitate towards extremism on either side, and aren’t interested in political polemics.

I would be equally as skeptical of much of the BS that emanates from liberal quarters, like the suggestion that society is in any danger from academics and social media personalities who aren’t even that well-known within their own political domains, let alone outside of those domains.

I also wouldn’t be relying on the writings of Orwell to support a point of view one way or the other to be honest. He didn’t have a particularly high opinion of people who he saw as beneath him -

Gollancz objected both to Orwell’s visceral disgust at the working classes, but also to the lampooning of the well-meaning, middle-class socialists who earnestly tried to foster revolutionary consciousness, denouncing ‘every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, Nature Cure quack, pacifist and feminist in England’.

https://www.bl.uk/20th-century-literature/articles/nineteen-eighty-four-and-the-politics-of-dystopia

riffmongous · 14-03-2022 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780591#Comment_118780591

I'd agree with a lot of that Danzy. In most of Europe it's the far right who the Russians support mainly because they are the biggest crank group with the best potential for disrupting and weakening the EU. In Ireland there is no far-right so instead they support the far-left out of convenience, preying on their anti-americanism and Russia's historical role in that, but the end goal is the same.

And I've also seen some disgraceful social media posts from far-left posters, it's not the opinion of all thankfully but certainly some. A simple motto of 'end the war' or 'no more militarism/nationalism' isn't much good when you have one side intent of destroying the other, at best it's downright insulting. A lot of these people need to go back and see where 'no pasaran' came from and why it's important to stop fascism in it's tracks. Even if you are against nationalism you've got to see the Russian nationalism is the biggest issue here

Pa ElGrande · 14-03-2022 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782737#Comment_118782737

It does help that the central character is straight out of a James Bond film casting. It is right to be suspicious when the great and the good are hopping on private jets in a get together to promote topics that may well impact you. Lets see who is on the board of management at the WEF a few names catch my attention all are heavily into the Green new deal.

Larry Fink (Blackrock - who is pushing ESG)
Mary Carney (Banker promoting "Green finance")
Christine Lagarde (ECB)
Kristalina Georgieva (IMF)
Al Gore
Orit Gadiesh (Bain & Company)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3nWyoQ5CQ

newhouse87 · 14-03-2022 3:27pm

left good, right bad, that's it summed up i think. Thread can be closed now i reckon.

RobbieTheRobber · 14-03-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783696#Comment_118783696

Another youtube video doesn't help me.

What exactly is it you think Klaus Schwab and the WEF are engaged in?

RobbieTheRobber · 14-03-2022 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783709#Comment_118783709

But what about Klaus Scwab and WEF are they going to reset the entire human race or not?

Boggles · 14-03-2022 3:34pm

Whatever Klaus is up to he'd want to giddy up, the lad must be a 100.

newhouse87 · 14-03-2022 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783753#Comment_118783753

Who in gods name is that? Thought wef was a spin off from wwe the wrestling show for a minute.

RobbieTheRobber · 14-03-2022 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783781#Comment_118783781

I thought you knew. You thanked Pa ElGrande's post where he brought up Klaus. The section is quoted below for you.

There is another factor to consider, that of Klaus Schwab and his great reset that practically all Western leaders have bought into ("build back better") or more realistically Communism 2.0, the return of command and control under the auspices of the Green new deal. Part of its aims were to try and exercise control over Russia and China through the Carbon market, not going to happen - President Putin of Russia pressed his own reset button.

From my reading of the internet Klaus Scwab and WEF are the new bogeymen for conspiracy minded right wing grifters to parrot **** about.

14-03-2022 4:26pm

@Tell me how how is state mandated patriotism regimented in the likes of North Korea, China and now Russia without the thing that the left used to be the defenders of but now seem to have waged an all out war on, freedom of speech.

The majority of the defenders of this important, western principle seem to be coming from the right these days and that is a very terrible thing. I bet you’d struggle to find an advocate for freedom of speech in support of any of these authoritarians.

There is a battle right now in the west for what exactly our values are. Hopefully we can use this moment to find clarity and galvanise populations that otherwise were on the brink of civil war.

14-03-2022 4:51pm

It's easy to identify the faults in others, OP, less easy to have the humility to address our faults. That sounds irrelevant, almost apolitical, but if we kept our own faults and limitations in mind, there would be more humility and less hostility in politics.

There are truths in the politics of both right and left.. neither owns reason, or common sense, or financial discipline, or any of the other qualities we tend to look for and talk about when it comes to politics. It would be egotistical, deluded, and extremely bigoted to claim that one group has all the solutions to society's problems. It would be insanity to claim that themmuns' worldview should be mocked and even obliterated, but that's exactly what some people turn politics into. (It's especially grandiose when themmuns refers to extremely large groups of people e.g. 'the left' or 'the right' or 'Americans' or 'Brits' or yadda yadda.)

I don't think Ireland is that bad. The discourse is much worse in the US, especially since Trump, where the binary system magnifies this either/or approach to politics and people.

If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

--Solzhenitsyn

And BTW Russia and China have fully infiltrated the politics of both left and right in the US, stirring exactly the kind of division you rail against in your OP.

newhouse87 · 14-03-2022 4:53pm

some of that post i agreed with. Don't fancy learning about him either.

Tell me how · 15-03-2022 4:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118781983#Comment_118781983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782079#Comment_118782079

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782161#Comment_118782161

Is that all you guys can come up with? There's plenty in my posts to refute should you disagree with it and yet none of you even attempt to.

Disappointed to be honest, not really surprised,

Tell me how · 15-03-2022 5:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784148#Comment_118784148

Don't dispute that there is right or wrong on all sides, but I don't see any argument refuting the point I made in the OP that the most cataclysmic events most of us have experienced have come about because of the actions of those who are comfortable with a right side ideology. To try to suggest 'both sides are at it' is to ignore the reality firstly of the fact that the consequences of the actions of one group are significantly more detrimental than that of the other. And secondly, that much of what is highlighted as being the motivations of the Left has been a strawman of sorts (with a grain of truth, certainly) about the Lefts intentions that has been used to enrage people in opposition to this strawman and this is not good for our societies.

I would also say that the appeal to recognize the evils on all sides makes me raise an eyebrow significantly when reading it, and many of those who thanked the post given their role in perpetuating the narrative in this space that the ideals of the left (as they identified them) have motivated so much of their content over recent years. As I pointed out, there has been an overwhelming narrative on here that the issues of the left are the more problematic ones and that is not the case. It reminds me of the actions in the US congress when one side called for bipartisan initiatives in an attempt to shut down investigations in to the actions that led to the capitol being stormed. The democrats have been too forgiving in not holding their opposition to account and this has emboldened significant players within the GOP that would have their leaders of yesteryear rolling over in their graves.

And its not just the US, in the UK yesterday, Michael Gove tried to play the partisan card and while this is politics, and that is what is often the way of things, he is trying to sweep under the rug the massive influence that russian players have had and continue to have in UK politics and the real world impact of their abysmal response with respect to accepting refugees. The Conservatives are in power for over ten years in the UK, they should have to own the society which now exists in that country and to allow them play the 'there's bad people on both sides' type thing is dangerous. That is the point. We have the evidence of that.

And I am concerned about this, aside from the ongoing active issues, but because of the issues that are likely going to face us as a global population more and more going forward. I believe that the topic of sustainability (both in terms of resources and impact on the climate) is going to be one of the biggest issues that is going to motivate conflict and strife as we go forward. And many of the same players who have been found to have behaved, and continued to behave shamefully, within the Right/Left. Woke/'Calling it as I see it' are already using the same tactics that they have used for various reasons to paint the left as the bogeyman to do the same once again with respect to Climate scientists and people who advocate restraint.

We can't ignore this issue like other issues have been ignored, the consequence of that is likely to be much more significant and impactful. Your final sentence is the point I was making with respect to Russia. Not just the US, but UK politics also. And the fact that this has happened is why I started this thread. I believe Brexit came about as a consequence of this and when one journalist in particular painted a very clear picture of the Russian influence in the Brexit space (and beyond) she was ridiculed and sidelined including publicly by the chief political correspondent of the BBC at that time who went on to launch a station that was specifically launched with the agenda of being 'non-woke' and was backed by a supposed Russian agent. That is why we are in this mess, because these things have happened, but people choose to turn a blind eye to them and instead get angry because someone wanted to be referred to as he/him or whatever.

Tell me how · 15-03-2022 5:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784049#Comment_118784049

The majority of the defenders of this important, western principle seem to be coming from the right these days and that is a very terrible thing

You think? Opposition to whatever they think 'CRT' is in schools in the US would suggest not. Opposition to people calling for the fair treatment of all by the police in the US would definitely suggest not.

The recent policing bill in the UK making it next to impossible for people to protest definitely isn't the defending of free speech. And as for the shutting down of all independent news stations and arresting people protesting with blank signs in Russia, surely there's no debate about whether that is supporting free speech or categorically preventing it.

But, the 'dark forces' I am referring to in my OP are those who have ignored these acts and tell us that the 'right are defenders of free speech' when all the evidence suggests otherwise.

By being ignorant to what is really going on for too long, we have ended up in a situation where Russian media is broadcasting Tucker Carlson because his narrative supports their agenda, and in the UK Nigel Farage is also speaking out in support of them. It is in having allowed such people to push a narrative that we have, as you point out, ended up in a situation where war is a distinct possibility.

bewareofthedog · 15-03-2022 6:20am

OP if you went on a board like Breitbart you'd find similar arguments saying all the problems are coming from the left. When people spend a lot of time in political echo chambers ( or any echo chamber ) they increasingly begin to believe everything they hear if it sways in their preferred direction and block out everything else.

[quote]suggesting that the things to be concerned about in the world have been liberal initiatives such as advocating for the climate, considering women's experience in society, multiculturalism, conversations about identity and so on.[/quote]

There's pushback against some of the topics you've mentioned because there's elements associated with them that are extreme. Taking the identity argument for example I can imagine that the average joe majority would question biological males being allowed to compete in Women's sports. On the topic of multiculturism a majority voted for Brexit and I didn't find it all that unbelievable since there's 50k potential terrorists on a watchlist over there. Things aren't always black or white, right or wrong.

I don't believe there's some widespread cohort effort happening like you describe. There's always going to be people on the far right and the same is true for those on the far left. If I were you I'd ask a mod to delete this thread and take a break from political sites on the internet for a while, it's good for the mind.

Tell me how · 15-03-2022 6:24am

Here is Nigel Farage with his latest 'rinse and repeat' initiative.

https://twitter.com/PowerNotPoverty/status/1503422293288144906

It conveniently is launching at the same time as a light is being shone on Nigel and Richards Russian connections which is no accident I suspect and will look to do what worked for them on Brexit. Use simple buzzwords, 'Vote Power, not poverty' what does that mean anyway? It will promise a future that will not come to pass and it will look to demonise the educated people who are advising again.

This is quite simply dangerous. It will seek to kick the can further down the road so that most of the people involved will not have to deal with the worst consequences of what they are promoting and they stand a good chance of succeeding because they will look to convince people that they can have it all, they won't have to curtail their habits with respect to energy use, they won't have to pay for the consequences of what they are doing and there are no downsides.

It worked for them for Brexit, but Brexit hasn't worked for the people that voted for it. It is telling as to how much power he thinks he has that he can call for a referendum on such a topic. Maybe he knows such a black and white question on such a monumental and wide ranging topic will never happen, or maybe he thinks it will and he can shout about the 'will of the people' once again. But it is dangerous to ignore the reality of what we are facing just to avoid having to consider any sort of changes from what we are currently doing.

Tell me how · 15-03-2022 6:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786586#Comment_118786586

If I were you I'd ask a mod to delete this thread and take a break from political sites on the internet for a while, it's good for the mind.

Brilliant. Gave me a laugh.

Your earlier reference to Breitbart and so on is part of the problem, too many people shrug their shoulders and say 'sure they're all at it,' because they haven't stopped long enough to analyze the arguments.

I am on the record on here for saying I don't broadly agree with biological males competing with females because I believe the gains from having lived a significant amount of time as a man can simply not be removed despite hormonal treatment. And I am basing that on the output of scientists such as Ross Tucker of World Rugby. At least I'm consistent in that respect.

But I also don't think it is as big an issue as it was made out to be an I am very skeptical of the 'won't someone think of the poor girls they are competing against' when on so many other topics they refuse to show any inclination towards thinking about things from the perspective of females.

arthursway · 15-03-2022 7:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786581#Comment_118786581

By being ignorant to what is really going on for too long, we have ended up in a situation where Russian media is broadcasting Tucker Carlson because his narrative supports their agenda, and in the UK Nigel Farage is also speaking out in support of them. It is in having allowed such people to push a narrative that we have, as you point out, ended up in a situation where war is a distinct possibility.

So two news anchors Nigel farage and tucker Carlson talking for an hour in the evening is the reason that WW3 is a an ever growing possibility? Come on man.

There has been Democrat presidents in the USA for 10 out of the last 14 years.

The only presidents term russia didn't invade anywhere is during the 4 years of the Republic presidents term.

Saudia Arabia and UAE won't even answer the current Democrat presidents call and hold mass executions at the same time.

Iran just cruise missiled a US consulate under construction in Iraq.

It is becoming very evident that other world leaders have no respect for Joe Biden and have grown ever bolder since the Afghanistan withdrawal debacle.

The Democrats currently control the White House and Congress in Washington along with most major cities in the USA which I understand is where you are currently living. If your not happy with how things are going in the USA you need to point that finger at the door of the left wing im afraid, an ability you don't seem to possess at the moment but hopefully this thread has been a real eye opener for you and removed the political blinkers you have put on yourself.

RobbieTheRobber · 15-03-2022 9:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786602#Comment_118786602

Intelligence services in the us have serious questions around the election of trump and Russian involvement. We know that Russian money funded many brexit campaigns and that Russia attempted to interfer in brexit.

Yet you hold up both trumps presidency and brexit as positives of right politics.

Gas stuff altogether.

15-03-2022 10:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786579#Comment_118786579

Lot to digest here. Just wanted to let you know that I am not ignoring it and will respond in due course. Work is going to keep me preoccupied today 👍️

Only immediate response I would give is that if you are indeed based in the US as another poster suggested, the binary nature of the discourse is fuppin' awful and almost impossible to escape -- this contaminates and infantalizes all attempts at thinking.

Also, I haven't been on boards very long and don't really get into political debates or so called 'culture war' debates so I couldn't tell you whether it skews more to the left or to the right. What I know from my own experience, living according to the views expressed in my post, is that both right and left find common ground with me (at different times).. and right and left find many reasons not to like my positions, because I am not fixed in place, ideologically speaking.. and the thoroughly committed want everyone to be as fixed in place as they are (which I can't/won't do).

Pa ElGrande · 15-03-2022 10:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786835#Comment_118786835

The Russians seems to be funding both sides of the aisle . . . it is known from history they were actively funding CND (I support CND) via proxies.

arthursway · 15-03-2022 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786835#Comment_118786835

Yes that is all those intelligence agencies still have years on is serious questions still after throwing the kitchen sink at legnthy investigations.

I didnt mention Brexit in my post I don't believe.

RobbieTheRobber · 15-03-2022 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786905#Comment_118786905

I think you misunderstood what I meant by serious questions.

🤣🤣🤣

There is no doubt within the intelligence community that Russia interfered in the election in which Trump won. That is no longer doubted by any but the worst ostriches.

The Russian government interfered in the 2016 U.S. presidential election with the goals of harming the campaign of Hillary Clinton, boosting the candidacy of Donald Trump, and increasing political and social discord in the United States. According to the U.S. intelligence community, the operation—code named Project Lakhta[1][2]—was ordered directly by Russian President Vladimir Putin.[3][4] The Special Counsel's report, made public in April 2019, examined numerous contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian officials but concluded that there was insufficient evidence to bring any conspiracy or coordination charges against Trump or his associates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections

The questions remain about the level of Donald trumps involvement or knowledge of that interference.

Yet you hold an election in which Russia the current global villain interfered as a positive. That is interesting.

I did seem to confuse you with another poster who was holding up Brexit as a positive example of right wing anti immigrant politic.

RobbieTheRobber · 15-03-2022 10:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786898#Comment_118786898

Is this more links straight out of the WEF are the illuminati playbook?

One eyed Jack · 15-03-2022 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786579#Comment_118786579

I would also say that the appeal to recognize the evils on all sides makes me raise an eyebrow significantly when reading it, and many of those who thanked the post given their role in perpetuating the narrative in this space that the ideals of the left (as they identified them) have motivated so much of their content over recent years. As I pointed out, there has been an overwhelming narrative on here that the issues of the left are the more problematic ones and that is not the case.

You’re doing exactly the thing you’re critical of though, only from the opposite perspective! You’ve decided to identify things which are issues for you, and assigned responsibility for those issues to people who aren’t responsible for them, and suggested that those issues wouldn’t exist if people had encouraged and promoted liberal policies which are put forward by leftist politicians.

It’s really not an issue for anyone who doesn’t see the value in liberal, leftist policies, and it doesn’t indicate any dangers of the right, as you have so carefully and curatedly identified those issues as issues for everyone in society, based upon your own standards.

Giving yourself a pat on the back for confirming your own biases is not the insightful opinion worthy of respect you imagine it should be to anyone but yourself.

15-03-2022 12:52pm

The fact that a certain cohort's views are so obviously nonsense and easily weaponised kinda tells you what you need to know about those movements. Along with the fact that they ever so quickly fit into the useful idiot bracket.

timmyntc · 15-03-2022 12:55pm

Dont forget to check under the bed at night for the far-right!

Tell me how · 15-03-2022 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787687#Comment_118787687

They're not under the bed, they're on TV kid.

Prime time shows. That's why it's a problem.

Tell me how · 15-03-2022 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787608#Comment_118787608

Sorry, I'm not giving myself a pat on the back for anything.

I'm pointing out the reality of what is happening.

And that us why I'm not doing exactly what I'm suggesting is going on on the right.

I can point to direct links between right wing players, narratives and real world events that are very troublesome and are having serious consequences.

Here's a sitting US congressman, himself with an eye raising connection with Russia talking about bringing weapons to the attempted insurrection last year.

https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1503376879453147140?t=xD-RsLyDkYoLlytd8Jofrg&s=19

I'm not even saying he definitely did, wouldn't be surprised if it was just bluster given the fascination they have with guns etc, but is this not a dangerous position, either way? People died at and since that event because of those who organized and incited it.

A former Republican Presidential nominee is concerned.

https://twitter.com/costareports/status/1503588338057588738?t=Wd_oa1Rrc_i3ol5lrneRQA&s=19

Why do you think that is?

You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the right.

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