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30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I would argue that designing roads with bike lanes on the inside is inherently dangerous given that it opens up the very real possibility of left hooks from motorists. Seriously, motorists are often advised not to pass fellow motorists on the inside. So, why design a road to encourage more vulnerable users to pass on the inside?

    It is because traditionally cycling infrastructure is designed by drivers for drivers as it is simply designed to remove the risk of cyclists from delaying drivers on the road . It is not designed by someone who will ever use it or understands the risks of bad design.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    When car makes a turn, it's already done at a very low speed so in this case a strict rule who has a priority and a serious enforcement would help to create people's habits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,108 ✭✭✭✭zell12




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    For me, the safest way as a cyclist, is to move out of the cycle lane (if there is one) and go center lane. Become a car, until past the junction then move back left. This also works well on roundabouts. I think you need to be experienced and very aware (as a cyclist) what you are doing to pass on the outside as there's a lot more variables in play.

    As a driver, I'm happy to wait for cyclists to come past me on the inside. Because I'd prefer to be delayed and hit someone, than insist on right of way and hit someone even if its their fault.

    Indeed I've had that happen a cyclist going full pelt up the inside with wands marking their lane, not paying attention, and not seeing my indicator and I had no visibility of them until it was too late. Before the wands I would have moved tight to the kerb to block undertaking cyclists before making a turn. I try to avoid junctions now with this layout of wands and heavy cycling traffic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Be easier to remove the cycle lane 25ms from junction to allow the cars to take left turning position. It would also create space on the right of the car for the passing cyclist to move into.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    For me, the safest way as a cyclist, is to move out of the cycle lane (if there is one) and go center lane. Become a car, until past the junction then move back left.

    this is also my approach. however, it's not something it's easy to advise a nervous novice to do, and the wands at junctions now make it a bit harder to claim the lane.

    e-bikes might make people more confident about taking the lane; the improved acceleration should help with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭markpb


    Do you mean putting the cyclist between two lanes of moving traffic?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If you've ever turned right on a bicycle or needed to go straight where the two lanes and a filter turning left. Cycling between lanes of moving traffic is normal.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its also more than a little terrifying for many which is why you only see the bravest doing it



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    People adhering to this needless limit just results in needless and dangerous overtakes of the law abiding in sensitive places. There should not be overtaking in residential areas, but there BMW and VW Golf / Bora / old Passat drivers on the road, and so it will happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    I might be reading the table incorrectly but it looks like this says exceeding the speed limit is one of the least common factors for vehicles causing injuries to cyclists?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    certainly looks as if it's recorded that way. but that doesn't really prove anything in the '30km/h vs 50km/h debate'.

    also, they may only record that when it's provable the motorist was exceeding the speed limit anyway.





  • Some people already drive 30kph, or don’t move off at the green light. Same folk then tend to drift through the red light. The behaviour is due to using mobile phone. Lowering the soles limit could encourage more people to drift into inattention from the road as the decide to make use of the crawl to peek at their messages etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    hmmmm so the reason for not lowering the speed limit is because we acknowledge people are driving dangerously...



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    so if we slow people down, it'll make the roads more dangerous?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think it's more nuanced then that. It will depend on the road and how it's being used.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It's not speed it's inappropriate speed. Quite a different thing.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i was just addressing the comment that suggested that if people drive more slowly, they'll be more likely to be looking at their phones and thus the implication is they drive more dangerously, which is an argument i don't buy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You don't have to buy it. They've done research into it.

    Not that I'm suggesting the Phoenix Park is the same. But these sweeping generalisations are opinions not fully thought out. It's very easy to look up all this research, but no one seems to bothered to do it. Or be bothered that no one else has done it including the people making the changes.

    I suspect this is why they seem to have started collecting traffic data in the park recent. They realize they have no recent data.

    That said some people only to learn that fire is hot by touching it. With that mind why not do a trial and see how it works out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Incidentally I note that the park no longer comes up on most route planners I've tried recently.

    Was trying to plan a bus/walk journey for someone and it avoided the park entirely. Same with trying send someone a route to something actually in the park.

    The only one that worked was one that for hiking where you pick your own waypoints.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Hiding the park in maps...well that will certainly hide it from people commuting through it every day. And be very useful for tourists and people who don't know where it is.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    True, only way to fix the commuting through it is to remove the through access

    For tourists, you can still navigate to a destination within the park, feel free to test it out for yourself



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    whoever has rewritten the guidance on google maps needs a smack. it's perverse:




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    interesting, but i'm curious about some of their conclusions, e.g.

    The researchers found that vehicles were two times more likely to obey the speed limit at locations with higher posted speed limits set at 50 mph or 55 mph compared to the base case of less than 50 mph, and four times more likely to obey when the posted speed limit was between 60 and 70 mph.

    well, duh. 'the number of illegal murders dropped after murder was made legal'.

    they also seem to have limited their data collection for unknown reasons:

    Speed data was collected in daylight hours and in fair weather conditions using hidden pavement sensors. Large vehicles, such as trucks, and cars traveling too close together were excluded. Cars traveling less than 10 mph of the posted speed or greater than 20 mph of the posted speed limit, known as speed outliers, were also excluded.

    they don't state what sort of roads were studied. also, it states 'statistically significant' changes but the article linked makes no attempt to explain how much of a difference, and how much it varied by speed limit change. and they make the claim that fatal injuries increased - just how many fatalities happened on 12 roadway segments that there were enough fatalities to be statistically useful? maybe i should avoid driving in montana, it sounds dangerous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    When I last tried it, it had me drive to a gate and walk the rest of the way.

    Today it's hit and miss. Often doing bizarre routes having me drive crazy circular routes, then drive through the park the longest way possible. Instead of going in at the nearest gate. Sometimes it has me stopping on Chesterfield Ave and walking the rest of the way. Then sometimes it works properly depending on starting location.

    I wonder has someone made a couple of the gates marked as closed or something.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Someone having fun with it anyway.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i was wondering if the roundabout nearest the castleknock gate has been accidentally marked as no throughway.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Was the first research study Google turned. I know there are others. They are generally very specific to where they are. Often lower speed limits have no effect because enforcement remains non existent.

    The point is don't assume things are always intuitive or simple.

    The only way to know for sure is measure before and after.

    People should always check media and "official" sources. Often there is no data backing up their statements.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The logic being if you are using GPS to find a route to the park or something in it, you mostly likely already be in it. I see.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    "As a driver, I'm happy to wait for cyclists to come past me on the inside. Because I'd prefer to be delayed and hit someone, than insist on right of way and hit someone even if its their fault.

    Indeed I've had that happen a cyclist going full pelt up the inside with wands marking their lane, not paying attention, and not seeing my indicator and I had no visibility of them until it was too late. Before the wands I would have moved tight to the kerb to block undertaking cyclists before making a turn."

    Genuine question: if you are driving a car and doing a left turn that involves crossing over a cycle lane on your left that is going straight ahead, do you really believe that you have right of way over someone on a bike already in that cycle lane? If you do, what is your basis for that belief?

    Post edited by Unrealistic on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,499 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    So @patrickbrophy18 I take it we can dismiss this ridiculous statement as being nothing more than a figment of your imagination then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Same as turning into across any lane of traffic, you check it's safe to do so.

    But there are limits to what you can do. You have finite vision and reactions. There are physical limitations to lines of sight and predictability.

    If you cycle flat out in an area where there are lots of pedestrians and one steps out in front of you, you'll never be able to stop in time. There are limits to your stopping distance and reactions. This is why it's a bad idea to filter or undertake at inappropriate speeds beyond your ability to stop safely.

    No one's immune to physics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    So you are no longer asserting that you have right of way? I'm asking because it seems to be widely held belief among a large number of drivers. It's a misunderstanding of the rules of the road that the RSA really needs to address it seems to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Maybe you'll quote what specific "law" you're inferring to.

    "...A cyclist may pass to the left of a vehicle unless the vehicle is indicating to turn left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle will commence the turn before the cyclist reaches the vehicle..."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Nope, it is common knowledge that slowing cars to make them less attractive and encourage cycling is their primary objective. The rest of the comment was my opinion on this objective which I am perfectly entitled to.

    I don't have to explain myself to you or anyone else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    If you are going to reference "law" and post something in quotes you could at least quote some actual legislation rather than lifting text from some anonymous randomer's boards.ie post from a few years back.

    It's too late at night to go digging into the Road Traffic Acts but I will offer these from the Rules of the Road:

    You may overtake on the left when:

    Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly but traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the right-hand lane – for example, in slow moving stop/start traffic conditions.

    Changing traffic lanes

    You must give way to traffic already in the lane into which you are moving.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    I didn't say I was referencing law. I asked you to reference law. Deliberately Law.

    My text is derived from https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/cycling/cycling_offences.html

    However as a cyclist you cannot overtake on the inside if the vehicle you intend to overtake:

    Is signalling an intention to turn to the left and will move to the left before you overtake it

    Ironically you're asserting the right of way supersedes safety to my comment advocating the opposite. This in a conversation about road design/cycle lane being flawed as its currently being implemented. But also taking the lane can be safer then staying left in the cycle lane. This is why the law about mandatory cycle lanes was revoked.

    More than one-half of accidents to cyclists occur at junctions. 80% are related to turning against or crossing the path of other vehicles


    At junctions cycle tracks 3.4 times more dangerous than using road

    We need to fix the problem of poor design.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,499 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Could you give any specific example of the “numerous officials” from the Greens that you heard on the radio setting out this position please?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    I don't set out to bookmark any podcasts of radio interviews which I've heard over the years for later citation, especially ones where the subject matter is inconveniencing cars. That would be bordering on obsessive. I try to avoid naming politicians as much as possible on these threads. So, no names, no lawsuits. So, cut the sanctimony.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭markpb


    I heard on a radio/podcast/bus shelter once that FF want to build a nuclear reactor in Ballsbridge because Micheál Martin wants to annoy Mark Zuckerberg. Don't ask me for any kind of proof that I didn't dream this up last night, that's your problem!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If you need proof. If like to see the enforcement statistics of the current 30kmph zones vs higher speed zone to see if they are actually being enforced the same.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I thought this might be apt for the discussion :-)




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Better chance in that than getting a ticket here.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,499 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




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