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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tooka


    That was not his point, his point was that country believes strength is our strength and if the west don’t deal with that country accordingly you end up with our current nightmare



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,715 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I disagree with his point. Our diversity is in fact our strength and it is why the likes of Ukraine want to look westward instead. And the West remains infinitely stronger than Russia in multiple different ways.

    Perhaps there should have been a stronger response post Crimea - but the West (and credit where it is due, the UK have been strong on this) have been training and arming Ukraine since then which has contributed to their strong resistance. They just don't shout about it and make stupid propaganda recruitment videos of their soldiers doing somersaults and throwing axes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Paulownia


    I have been to Ukraine many times and I have friends there, none of them believed an invasion would happen and now some of them are fighting on the outskirts of Kiev and they are saying that the Russian soldiers being captured are saying they didn’t believe it would happen either. One of my friends Russian brother in law is fighting against the Ukrainian forces near Poland



  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tooka


    Starkey is gay so I assume he likes diversity too, his point is Russia is an enemy, China is an enemy , and anyone who treats your enemies as friends is also your enemy

    act accordingly, control immigration, have national food and energy policies that work and mean you import very little , have a well funded army and navy.

    we could heed the above ourselves



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,715 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I will concede that our reliance on Russian oil and gas has been a massive tactical mistake.

    I'm not sure treating them purely as an enemy is conducive to avoiding these kind of situations either though. There was a logic to bringing Russia into Western commerce etc (and indeed, it is hurting them that this has been unceremoniously pulled away from them). It has not worked, clearly, but being completely antagonistic to them for the last 20 years could easily have been worse.

    Either way, it could (and imo should) have happened earlier, but Russia are very much on the enemy list now.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tooka


    I believe very little was done after the fall of the Soviet Union to get Russia to come over to our side. America and the EU should have been horsing money at them from the day the Soviet Union fell. If we had shown the Russian people why The west way of life is better we could now be looking at a Russia both in the EU and in nato and a key ally against the true enemy China.

    China are the reason we must join nato and start building our own substantial army and navy,



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,970 ✭✭✭Christy42


    While N. Korea is horrible for people staying there it is a joke on the world stage. Russia is meant to be a superpower that is failing.


    Plus look at the brands leaving. McD, apple etc. Think of how many Russians you know. While there is plenty of rural Russia plenty of people have seen behind the iron curtain to the better lives of those outside it. If it becomes a pariah it will need a new iron curtain simply to stop its people from fleeing en masse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Heard it before but there are a few problems there; first, Russia was not the only Eastern European state to be in dire circumstances following the fall of the Soviet Union. Trying to help in the manner you are speaking of was not necessarily a task that 'the West' as it were, would have been able to accomplish. The best that could have been offered would be perhaps expedited EU expansion but that has not been without its own problems nor has it been a panacea where it has taken place.

    Second, Russian actions during the 1990s weren't exactly in line with a typical troubled Democracy fresh from despotism - between Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Serbia, Transdnistria, Dagestan and Chechnya, Russian kept it's hand in a few bloody conflicts and not for altruistic reasons. You would have a very hard time, for example, trying to reconcile NATO membership with the ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    It seems shocking to think that mentally disabled men are automatically conscripted into the army and thus enemy targets to Russia.

    Have I misread the rules? Is Zelensky the first to conscript the entire male population 18 - 60 in history?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,775 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    I was adding to the existing conversation about the attempts to circumvent IP rights in earlier. As an addition I can also speak from a qualified position of Int'l war crimes as well so as to place it context. That economic factors are a prime determiner of how a conflict will be determined is well established ( eg the blockade of Germany during WW1 and the sanctions imposed on Imperial Japan on the lead up to Pearl habour) make it a relevant point of discussion.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Conscription does seem a natural step in defending one's country against an invading force but even so can cause protests against it if handled unfairly - taking the US for example when some of the worst civil disturbances occurred in New York over the draft during the US Civil war.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Assuming everyone watched Mearsheimer

    https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4

    It seemed predictable that Russia would destroy Ukraine if it didn't give up it's NATO ambitions. As Mearsheimer states, NATO were not going to let Ukraine join anyway or help them.

    We (Ireland) had to use diplomacy/ remain neutral in order to ensure that the UK wouldn't invade us after our independence.

    Mercouris Alexander who appears to be a mouthpiece for Russia is signalling that if Ukraine doesn't compromise now it will get much worse for Ukraine AND NATO is not going to help Ukraine.

    What is Zelensky's plan? He has signalled he'll abandon NATO ambitions, ambitions which the Russians say caused the war in the first place. Why doesn't he just agree a peace plan? Everyday, more people, that are not Zelensky's wife or children, die and for what? I don't get it. I don't understand his plan. If Russia gets fed up they can bomb Ukraine into the stone age. Russia's demands are likely to get worse, what's the point in feeding Ukrainians into the war machine? Why not just agree a peace deal while he still can and Ukraine still exists?

    To top it off, Russia now has S550 nuclear kinetic defense missiles, meaning mutual assured destruction may not be so mutual anymore. Russia is a big military power like the USA that will squash and destroy anyone that threatens it. To me, all external talk should be about de-escalation at this juncture.

    Russia has the resources, China the engineering and India the services. Add to that the huge Chinese footprint in Africa.

    Europe has become lazy, the USA has become backward and Australia is far away. Surely the strategic position is to de-escalate and reassess. To agree a deal that will save lives in Ukraine, to step away from reliance on Russian oil/ gas, to build our own kinetic nuclear missile defense system, to get corruption out of the West (especially USA which has a wealth inequality at all time highs) etc.

    I see little to no benefit fighting an unwinnable war. Am I wrong?

    Post edited by mcsean2163 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Any examples of another country that had indiscriminate conscription of the male population?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,775 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Russia invading in 2014 is what caused the war in the first place. Then they invaded again a few weeks back.

    Also you are all wrong about Irelands neutrality there.

    Mutually assured destruction is just that and I'm not sure how you believe the Russians have gained an advantage there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,775 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Lopez in Paraguay fought with men and children to the point he almost caused the extinction of the native Paraguayan population due to almost all the men dying. And I mean almost all died.



  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No he doesn't and his sexuality has no bearing on it either.

    As for the if anyone who is a friend to your enemies is your enemy line, then the U.K. conservative government is an enemy to itself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Thanks, I'm pretty ignorant on a lot of this stuff. Not a good outcome for Paraguay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Before and after the invasion, Russia cited NATO ambitions.

    I said, 'Russians say caused the war in the first place.'. you are misquoting me.

    Russia destroyed Georgia, it has repeatedly said Ukraine is a strategic interest and it would destroy Ukraine if it continued to cross it's red lines. Ukraine did not start the war, Russia did and they are a juggernaut that can execute human carnage on a horrific level

    *****

    Do you think the UK would have let us put a Russian nuclear missile base in Dublin during the cold war? Bear in mind the UK obliterated entire civilizations, e.g. Tasmania.

    ******

    I just said it. S550 missile defense, just unveiled in 2021.



  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Having conscription didn't do the Iraqi army much good against professional volunteer armies during both gulf wars. It could be argued that the training received allowed for the hit and run attacks that continued well after Bush declared victory.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,485 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Absolute garbage. Utterly without merit or foundation.

    They also said that Ukraine government needed to be denazified.

    Genocide in Donbas

    They cited a lot of ****

    If it was such a red line where is the clause in the agreements Russia signed with Ukraine that it couldnt join NATO?

    They demanded not just a Ukraine not in NATO but demilitarized. So Russia could install or prop up puppet leaders or corrupt stooges unopposed like in Belarus.

    Thats why Ukraine is fighting. The stakes here are whether Ukraine is partitioned into weak demilitarizrd statelets with an open door for Russia to plunder or to survive as a sovereign state with ability to plot its own course such az joining EU. No county superpower or not, regardless of what strategic rights it appropriates, has the right to invade another country with that intent.

    If the Baltic states werent in NATO you would have to be v naive to think they wouldnt be now in same state as Belarus? Belarus wasnt about to join NATO and has effectively been annexed by Russia.

    If Russias only concern was what offensive weapons could be stationed in Ukraine this could have been discussed at a summit... taking into account what could be based in Kalingrad.

    This red herring has been raised and debunked multiple times on this thread.

    Oh and look. Added whataboutery about sth irrelevent the UK did hundreds of years ago.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Here's a commentary from Czech independent liberal newspaper Forum24.


    The Iron Curtain is a reality, it will separate two different civilizations

    At this point, it seems almost certain that the world will be divided, at least in the northern hemisphere, by the Iron Curtain. However, it is not just a matter of separating hostile military-political blocs or regimes, but literally of separating two different civilizations.

    What has fascinated Westerners about Russia since the beginning of the 18th century, especially the French or German intellectuals, has been the peculiar similarity in otherness or the otherness in similarity, if you will. In other words, the fact that people look the same there, ride the same carriages and wear the same clothes, listen to and compose (Tchaikovsky) the same music, recite and write (Pushkin) the same verses, and yet Russian society is quite different. It even showed an oriental appeal for Western travelers at the time.

    This external similarity, which obscures the true internal differences and differences between Russian and Western society, has been reinforced in an unprecedented way by global developments over the past thirty years. A visitor to Moscow or St. Petersburg will soon find that everything here (except for the inscriptions in Cyrillic) looks the same as in major European cities. People are dressed the same way, they buy the same furniture at home and drive the same cars. Yes, sometimes they have a bit of an eccentric and flashy taste, but from the outside, Russian society, at least in big cities, seems the same as ours, Western.

    Hence the subconscious confidence that the traditions and internal principles of Russian society will be the same, or at least very similar. Its rationality, sense of empathy, tolerance, free will and liberalism will be the same, or at least very similar.

    Lulled by this westernized face of Russia (or rather the idea of ​​it), we have been able to observe for more than two decades the strengthening of a regime in Russia whose internal nature, on the other hand, is quite different from that of the West. Despite many warnings, many Western politicians have overlooked the clues that have made this clear. For a simple reason, it was convenient, sometimes even popular. And so President Putin gradually eliminated any institutional opposition, decimated the non-profit sector independent of the government on the pretext of fighting "foreign agents," conquered the media, and established a sophisticated brainwashing system. He covered public space with aggressive propaganda about the Great Imperial Russia yet the Russia Hurt by the West at the same time.

    He attacked at the same time. In 2008 he occupied part of Georgia, in 2014 Crimea, then the territory of eastern Ukraine. He had his agents killing in Great Britain (Skripal, Litvinenko), had them committing terrorist attacks in the Czech Republic (Vrbětice). In Syria, Russian bomber raids sparked a refugee wave toward Europe, whose population at the same time was disrupted by an army of Russian trolls to an unprecedented rate.

    And all this in the western guise of the streets of Moscow and St.Petersburg. With the massive support of citizens dressed in Western brands. Citizens who live in IKEA-furnished rooms, have lunch at McDonald’s, drink Czech beer and drive Skoda, Volkswagen and Mercedes. Citizens who listen to Western music and read books by popular Western authors. Even the same TV programmes are broadcast by the Russian television, so the Russians are looking for their superstar, talents and masterchefs just like the English, the Germans or the Czechs. 

    In Russia, a regime has simply evolved, formally dressed in a Western coat, but which has little to do with the West. The departure of iconic brands such as McDonald’s and IKEA from the Russian market is gaining a deeply symbolic significance in this light. At least in part, it removes that Western make-up from the face of Russian society.

    It is difficult to judge what the population of Russia is like today. Relevant surveys since the invasion of Ukraine do not exist and it would be far too simple to be giving credibility to polls that appear on social networks, where they are primarily intended to be a proof of unprecedented support for the Putin regime. We do not know how many people refused to answer and preferred to hurry away from the pollsters.

    At the same time, we see protesters, usually young people in St. Petersburg and Moscow, being arrested by the police, and we know how much courage and independence of thought is needed to stand up to the regime's security forces and who knows, often perhaps their own parents.

    We have no idea how much of the public they represent. Overall, however, Russian society has long represented a different civilization with different thinking and values. This is the only way to present and justify the invasion of Ukraine as a fair fight against the Nazis and drug addicts. Yes, Russia has once again shown that it is a different cultural and civilizational sphere, and if it looks like Europe in a historical epoch (for example, during the reign of Peter the Great or after the collapse of the Soviet Union), it is just a mimicry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Am new here, so happy to hear whatever debunking has been done.

    There's no whataboutery to defend Russia from me. They are a nation like China, USA or UK of old that will destroy whoever is in their way.

    This I think sums up the Russian perspective.

    In an interview in May 2008, Mikhail Gorbachev spoke of the lost trust between Russia and the United States: “The Americans promised that NATO wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted.”

    That's from Gorbachev, the man of peace. My point is Ukraine needed to thread carefully and pursuing NATO was pointless. At any moment, Russia can whenever it wants destroy Ukraine.

    Perhaps you could explain to me what Zelensky hopes to achieve because I don't understand his plan. Does he want all male Ukrainians to die like Lopez in Paraguay came close to achieving? We have a Russian talking head saying the conditions for peace will just get worse if Zelensky continues, so what's the strategic point continuing fighting?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭liamtech


    Oh Realism - how i have missed you -its like you never left

    The Great Thing about John Mearsheimer is - he is a Realist.

    The bad thing about John Mearsheimer is - He is a Realist.

    Realism Argues on many things. State Survival, self help, sovereignty, military power, and balancing etc.

    Yes Russia can have concerns about the Ukraine. It has stated these concerns for many years, and has waxed lyrical about the need for an 'end to Nato Expansion'. etc etc. And it would logically seek to deter Ukraine from joining NATO. Russian intentions are absolutely clear on this, unambiguous. Russia wishes to remain the hegemon in the region. Realist doctrine would certainly pivot towards Russia establishing a favorable 'balance of power' in its neighborhood.

    THE TROUBLE IS: Russian intentions ONLY EMPHASIZE the Ukrainian position. They observe and note a large nuclear armed power on its door step. They remember history, they understand the threat that Russia poses. They hear its declarations of wishing to remain 'in control' of the region. Not wishing to live in a Russian Dominated eastern Europe, (with Belarus as a neighbor also) - they need to balance against this. They balance by joining a defense bloc - enter NATO. Ukraine, in seeking to join NATO is absolutely following the logical pathway to ensure its survival. Neo Realism (of which John is arguably the grandfather), would demonstrate that if you dont have the ability to deter aggression from a nearby hostile state - you seek allies who can. 'Strength in Numbers'

    So Russia, AND THE UKRAINE, are both behaving along Realist lines with regards to their situation (the door swings both ways). In fact, in Russia's pursuit of remaining 'in charge' (realism) - THEY FORCE UKRAINE to balance against this (realism). The more Russia threatens against Ukraine joining NATO, the more UKRAINE absolutely feels the need, to join NATO.

    Now, there is a way out of the above:

    What Russia COULD have done

    Russia could have said to Ukraine. Listen, we dont like NATO, for obvious reasons. And you joining them would be a real annoyance to us. So, we want to make a deal. We will utterly guarantee your statehood (militarily) as long as you dont join NATO - We will sign this treaty in FULL SIGHT of the world. And listen, if you wanna be democratic, autocratic, theocratic, or 'rule by Lizards' - Thats YOUR choice. We have NO INTEREST in undermining your independence, honestly!!! That doesnt matter to us and its not our business. If you wanna join the EU thats grand! Just .. not NATO? We wont interfere in anything else, thereby your SOVEREIGNTY INTERNALLY is your business. And international trade! Listen go ahead! I mean to hell with it, we will HELP!!!! Just, .... dont join NATO? Deal? We good??

    What Russia ACTUALLY DID

    • Attempted to undermine the Ukraine Internally by placing effective agents in its political parties
    • Funded pro Russian Parties to discourage any thought of being more European
    • Demanded for NO LEGITIMATE REASON that the Ukraine not join the EU (NOT A MILITARY ALLIANCE, at least until this disgrace)
    • Armed separatists in the Ukraine
    • Encouraged said separatists
    • Annexed the Crimea
    • Invaded the Ukraine

    All of the above, up to the actual invasion - tells the Ukraine a few things

    • Russia cannot be trusted
    • Russia is undermining us
    • Russia has territorial ambitions in Ukraine
    • Russia has no intention of respecting us one bit
    • We, need, to join..... NATO - ASAP

    I love John Mearsheimer - the man is a legend. But he primarily concerns himself with who ever the BIG PLAYER is - by default - and some consider it a weakness - Dont get me wrong he makes a lot of sense, and can seem prescient, at times. But realism is not just about the big players. ALL countries seek to survive. John wants to attack NATO expansion, and he, and Russia, make it sound like NATO 'INVADED' Eastern Europe. They were INVITED IN - by countries that had been ACTUALLY INVADED - BY RUSSIA! Seriously if we were in the Black Sea, and had been behind the Iron Curtain - we would have BEGGED AND PLEADED to join NATO -

    Anyway - Realism only gets you so far - only one of many theories that bounce around -

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Russians have had nukes in Kaliningrad. Just BTW. 😎



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭liamtech


    Look i replied above - but you need to look at the term - NATO AMBITION - Its Russian for - Hey, that used to be ours - honestly, im not being hostile with you - i studied realism - have a read of my response -

    And, NATO did not have ambition - it did not need ambition - When the curtain fell down, those previously trapped behind it - WANTED NATO - They joined - and believe me they are kissing their lucky stars for doing so -

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭McGiver


    They are a nation like China, USA or UK of old that will destroy whoever is in their way

    This is exactly Russian propaganda.

    Everyone is bad.

    Everyone is lying.

    There's no good guys.

    There is no truth.

    But Vietnam.

    But Kosovo.

    But Iraq.

    But Afghanistan.

    ...

    So can you remind me when UK destroyed France the last time?

    Or the US Mexico?

    Yes, the US made many policy mistakes in last 30 years. But that doesn't change anything about the fact that Russia is and was a brutal, despotic, militaristic regime with imperialistic habits.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,485 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Russia signed an agreement with ukraine re nuclear weapons. They agreed to respect ukraines boundaries including crimea. No mention that Ukraine couldnt join nato. It shows they cannot be trusted.

    Nowhere did nato sign an agreement with Russia saying ex ussr countries would not be admitted.

    Russia has signed agreements with nato accepting that ex ussr territories could join. And if they hadnt... they do not have that right after 50 years of occupation.

    Did the sites you are getting this guff from mention that?

    Does he want all ukranian men to die?

    Does any country fighting invasion where the existence of the country is at stake want their men to die? What a bizarre phrasing.

    Conditions for peace? Dont use weael words. They are conditions for surrender. That is why Ukraine fights on.

    You havent engaged or processed any of the points made about baltics belarus kalingrad if you just keep reposting the same questions prompted by propaganda cues over and over.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,485 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    So did Russia at some points sanction Nato expansion?

    Yes. In August 1993 Yeltsin, in talks with the Polish leader, Lech Wałęsa, conceded Poland’s right to join Nato, a concession that left his colleagues thunderstruck. More formally Russia did the same with the Nato Russia Founding Act in 1996.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/12/russias-belief-in-nato-betrayal-and-why-it-matters-today

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Interesting points. My understanding is they offered poroshenko that deal before the coup.

    My point would be, fine. Bit do it VERY discretely. Mearsheimer says that NATO will not allow Ukraine to join. Build relationships in the background, don't write NATO as a constitutional ambition, etc

    On your, what did Russia do? Why not have a US ledger or even discuss Zelensky jailing the opposition leader last year for treason. It all seems a mess that needed to be de-escalated

    Again look at the UK. A murdering colonising nation of epic proportions and yet we escaped it without an alliance to a military organization. Yes maybe we would look to join NATO if in a similar position but Ukraine's gambit failed. Why does Zelensky not agree a peace deal now? What is the point fighting an unwinnable battle? I don't see how his tactics will benefit the Ukrainian people, unless death is a benefit?

    Maybe I'm wrong, maybe dying in an unwinnable battle for freedom is a death worth dying. Personally, I feel I'd be pretty annoyed if Zelensky was my leader in battle as I have children so dying would be irresponsible.



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