Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)
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Getting into a war with Uruguay, Argentina AND Brazil was always going to have a bad outcome.
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Russia had plenty of money pumped into it after the fall of communism. The transaction to the current state however left many, especially older people feeling like they lost out in terms of quality of life due to rising cost of living, job losses etc.
Younger people at the time after the fall of Iron Curtain after being university educated for free were able to produce a better standard of living in terms of being able to travel and work outside of Russia and buy consumer goods, while those who stayed also got a similar boost if living in the bigger cities.
For those living in rural Russia nothing really changed except rising costs and crime rates.
As for China being our enemy. They are our fourth largest customer for agri exports, and actually second largest for dairy, they also have investments here in terms of factories. So like any other country we have an economic relationship with they are and they aren't.
As for Ireland joining NATO a lot of talk about this from people saying brexit was the best thing since sliced bread, gay and trans people ruined our country, and other fantasist bingo talking points in other threads while most likely being one of the first on a plane out of here if a military situation ever occurred.
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Everyone is not bad.
The UK literally wiped an entire race off the face of the earth in TasmaniaI. It's not a great power anymore.
Mexico is not a threat to the USA but it did seize new Mexico/ California in the 19th century. It's currently interfering in Mexico, e g. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/may/07/mexico-president-us-interference-funding-ngos
I think we all know what the US would do if Mexico entered an alliance with Russia/ China.
Just to say, we live in a democracy, I would hate to live in a dictatorship but that may not be the same for different cultures and spreading democracy through lies and murder like in Iraq is not good IMHO. Calling the deaths of over 100k people a policy mistake is, I don't know... Orwellian?
Finally, my only question. Why does Zelensky not settle now? It's a genuine question, I see lots of ordinary people dying terrible deaths. It seems an unwinnable position. What does calling for a no fly zone achieve? Shouldn't everything be done by Zelensky to stop the slaughter not prolong it?
I'm lost and saddened for the people of Ukraine. We have mercouris saying that Ukraine will lose more territory and freedom the longer fighting continues. I genuinely can't understand what Zelensky is trying to achieve.
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Some of the Russian demands were totally unacceptable. Demands that Ukraine be ''denazified'' and demilitarized, that Ukraine be precluded from joining the EU, that Ukraine constitutionally accept that Crimea and Donbas are part of Russia. Their effect would be to leave Ukraine defenceless should Putin or a successor decide to come back for another slice. The practical effect would be turn Ukraine into a vassal and client state, like Tiso's Slovakia.
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NO - they honestly didnt - Putin has decided the EU is 'another NATO' - He offered Poroshenko money (for the Ukraine if you will) - not to have anything further to do with the West. Putin may well be a rational actor RE nuclear weapons - But in terms of respecting limits and interfering in other elections - he is way out there -
As to why dont i have a US Ledger - there is no need to do so. The leader you mention was ACTUALLY working for Russian Interests - Which, given 2014 - i have no difficulty calling that Treason pal
See @mcsean2163 when i read this
Again look at the UK. A murdering colonising nation of epic proportions and yet we escaped it without an alliance to a military organization.
I frown. Big time. I dont want to discuss Ireland in this situation. But as you brought it up. The UK may well HAVE BEEN a Murdering colonizing country et al - but in all sincerity, they are not the same as Russia. The UK could have crushed the Irish during the war of independence. If they wanted to they could have ferried over tens of thousands more troops, smashed dublin, attacked all of our infrastructure, our civilians, and wiped us off the map. They didnt. Do you know why? Because as BAD as your CLEARLY THINK THEY ARE? They are ACTUALLY CIVILIZED - Irish methods of gaining independence, was to deny the UK the ability to control our country (hitting British state organs in ireland) and they decided to leave (Im not gonna get into treaties, 6 counties, ports, the free state, dominions, the empire, the 'big fella') - but trust me. If they wanted to they could have wiped the floor with us. They didnt. They would have found it unpalatable
WOULD PUTIN??? I dont think so
Russia under Vladimir Putin, is right now, demonstrating to you what it thinks of descent. Putin has NO SUCH SCRUPLES. And if you doubt that, reexamine the history of the Cold War - the various times the eastern bloc countries desperately tried to reform - they were CRUSHED - UTTERLY
Why does Zelensky not agree a peace deal now? What is the point fighting an unwinnable battle? I don't see how his tactics will benefit the Ukrainian people, unless death is a benefit?
You assume its unwinnable - maybe it is. But Russia is being hammered by the 'other front' - every sane state in the world is killing the Russian Economy - and its going to get worse.
As to whether to die on ones feet or live on ones knees - I dont know - im not going to bring philosophy into this. But Russian goals are clear - that country does not exist, its people are 'confused and brainwashed' - so its not going to be as simple as an occupation. If you survive that war - you are RUSSIAN NOW - Disagree? We have places for 'trouble makers' - Maybe you could live with your identity re-written before your eyes - Im not sure i could - im not saying i would fight to the death - being a realist i have to acknowledge that i dont know what i would do long term - Tell you what though, i wouldnt roll over easy
Happy to debate but its far more complicated than you are making it. Im not hostile with you - i am not gonna ignore you, but im getting that tingling feeling that you are, shall we say, 'morally confused' on this war. Do please, continue - lets talk. and lets see. Enjoy Mearsheimer - But realism is far bigger than John Mearsheimer
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Post edited by liamtech on
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Your point about Ireland in 1920 is well made. Much as Irish Republicanism liked to demonize Britain-and God knows, there was often reason enough for it-it should be recognized that there is a difference between states that ,however brutal, acknowledge some limits and states that do not. Imagine what would have happened to the Irish people in 1921 if powers like Germany, Bolshevik Russia or Turkey were the occupying force during the War of Independence. The Black and Tans would have looked like the Sisters of Mercy compared to what those states were capable of.
Post edited by ilkhanid on2 -
It feels like you are skimming through my comments without reading through them fully. I spoke about UK in a historical context not a present one. It's too long to go there and talk about their evolution etc.
I feel your condescending tone as regards Mearsheimer is annoying and you call me pal in an overbearing manner.
I see little justification for this stupid war. You must be aware of the Ukraine demographics etc. To be honest, I was hoping that my ignorance and lack of understanding would be enlightened but hasn't happened here tonight. I find it all very confusing and sad. My heart goes out to the Ukrainian people.
Goodnight all
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Read the comment to which I responded. Goodnight.
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They didnt. Do you know why? Because as BAD as your CLEARLY THINK THEY ARE? They are ACTUALLY CIVILIZED
The Brits and the back and tans were "civilised" during the war of independence.
Good jeasus
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Absolutely - my partner is an Irish Historian btw and i conferred with her to confirm what i already knew - We gained our independence from an Empire that, even in the early 20th century - was thousands of times better than Russia is today
If Lloyd George had attempted to
- Bann the free press
- imprison people speaking out
- had mass rallies of flag waving crowds
He would have been shot - in NO 10 - The British stopped being autocratic a long long time ago
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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I genuinely have read it. Its not a good analogy at all, i stand by that.
However
Sincerely - im sorry if i offended you - and i mean that sincerely btw
We have had some 'odd' posters on here and perhaps i miss interpreted you for another (by odd i mean peddlers of whataboutery, invalid analogies, and 'Both Sides-ing') - i genuinely apologize if i sounded condescending
Have a look at some pages of Neo-Realism and Classical Realism in IR - and you will perhaps see what i was saying - Russia is to blame for this but not just in the last 8 years - This is PUTIN - Russia was on a path to sanity and then a former KGB imperialist took over - and we are where we are - everything he has done since coming to power (Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine, Media, et al) - tells you he is not like you. or me. He is a 19th century leader with a 21st century army - he has a lot, and he wants more - Napoleon, Hitler - Valid analogies -
But i am sorry - please do chat and talk - its a good thing to get to the bottom of - and i appreciate good debate
No hard feelings i hope
:)
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Believe it or not - Like yes horrible things happened it was war - but compared to many occupying forces from history (The SS, The Red Army, the Chinese army, the Japanese, THE ROMANS) - the Tans were the Salvation army
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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because like a lot of Russian propaganda it is pure projection. They accuse the Ukrainians of things that they themselves are guilty of more than anyone. So, yes one battalion (Azov) in one part of the Ukrainian army has a far-right problem. That being said, far-right parties got less than 2% of the vote in the last election and the President is Jewish.
Now let's look at Russia:
- Rampant Nationalism
- Glorification of the military
- Disregard for Human Rights
- Identification of Enemies as a Unifying Cause
- Controlled Mass Media
- Obsession with National Security
- Religion and Government are Intertwined
- Rampant Cronyism & Corruption
- Fraudulent Elections
sounds like the definition of FACISM to me
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It's sufficient to be on Russia's naughty-list for them to call you a "Nazi". It can get absurd at times.
An EU vs disinfo article about this phenomenon in Russian propaganda from a few years ago:
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/nazi-east-nazi-west-nazi-over-the-cuckoos-nest/?highlight=Nazis%20everywhere
It would be a worry that, if they were to control it post-war, Russia's list of "Nazis" they wish to "stamp out" (per "the end of the world as we know it"!) in Ukraine may prove to be very lengthy and they may employ some unpleasant methods to do it.
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@mcsean2163 - ...Why does Zelensky not settle now? It's a genuine question, I see lots of ordinary people dying terrible deaths. It seems an unwinnable position. What does calling for a no fly zone achieve? Shouldn't everything be done by Zelensky to stop the slaughter not prolong it?
I'm lost and saddened for the people of Ukraine. We have mercouris saying that Ukraine will lose more territory and freedom the longer fighting continues. I genuinely can't understand what Zelensky is trying to achieve.
I was hounded by a bully at school until one day I retaliated and gave him a bloody nose. He was twice my size and could have killed me. He never bothered me again.
No-one is asking you to "understand what Zelensky is trying to achieve". In his mind, and that of his fellow countrymen, they are fighting for freedom of choice, as opposed to the shackles of oppression. And they are willing to fight to the last man, woman and child because some things are worth fighting for.
We should not be questioning either Zelensky or Ukraine's motives. We should be questioning a world that shies away from a nuclear threat from a despot, and watches the systematic destruction of an entire country and its population.
Just like the school bully, Putin will continue his actions unless you call his bluff. Sure there's a small risk of a madman instigating nuclear armageddon, but we've none of us the right to a place on this planet if we are willing to allow such atrocities to happen without challenging them.
We're all going to die one day anyway. Better to die fighting for justice and freedom than under the jackboot of a tyrant.
You're quite entitled to your opinion. Most would disagree with you.
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100%^^^^
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck....
2 weeks ago i didnt know about the ignore button - now im waiting for my 'frequent user discount card' -
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Nope they had plenty in common with those on your list, including torture, rape and random murder of innocent civilians.
As for the press in Ireland not being banned during the war of independence, they were under the constraints of the Defence of the Relam act and when they ignored this were put under suppression after they published advertisements for the Dáil Éireann loan fund for example.
British crown forces actively attacked and arrested members of the press, destroyed printing equipment and in cases such as the Westmeath Independent had their offices burned down.
The IRA did damage printing equipment of Irish Independent and the Cork Examiner, but they were back up and running in a few days.
None of this deflects from what Putin is doing in the Ukraine or indeed in his own country, just highlights the obvious similarities between then and now.
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Looking at your list you can see a lot of items that have people concerned in relation to how the Torries and GOP have been acting in the last few years and the links to Russian donations/influence.
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I agree that the Russians (and the Chinese btw) are a fine example of modern day fascism. However, your little list there could equally apply to America!
- Rampant Nationalism (Flag flying 'patriots' believe they are the greatest country on the planet)
- Glorification of the military (check)
- Disregard for Human Rights (extraordinary rendition flights, Guantanamo Bay, Support for Saudi bombing in Yemen killing hundreds of thousands and millions starving, failure to tackle MBS for Kashoggi murder or hold China to account for Uigher supprrssion)
- Identification of Enemies as a Unifying Cause (You are either with us, or with the terrorists...they hate our freedoms etc)
- Controlled Mass Media (Small number of corporations own most of the media outlets which are in turn funded by big Pharma and Defense contractors via advertising and sponsored prime time shows. Any debate or opinion that goes against the prevailing narrative is shut down or cancelled)
- Obsession with National Security (Largest defence budget of any nation and spies relentlessly on their own citizens)
- Religion and Government are Intertwined ( God Bless America! Also over influenced by nut job evangelicals)
- Rampant Cronyism & Corruption (Members of Congress profiting from insider trading, especially via investment in big pharma and defence contractors using insights garnered from their roles as lawmakers and committee members. Also see all Trumps family appointments during his term and Hunter Biden making millions in Ukraine after 2014 coup cos his Dad was VP)
- Fraudulent Elections (He or she who hath the largest financial war chest from corporate donors looking for favours ultimately wind up getting elected)
If anyone can dispute any of that, please do so as I could do with a laugh!😄
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Sure a lot of those things could apply to the UK or the USA but it in neither case are are they in the same league as the Russians. You can go through every single item in that list and make a case for it in the UK or USA scenario whereas it's absolutely blatant in the case of the Russians.
On average, It's like the UK is at a 3, the American are at a 6 and the Russians are at a 10 for most of those items.
To put the UK and the USA on the same level as the Russians is flagrant false equivalency.
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In all honesty - have you actually read Putins speech of Feb 24? Iv read it, and its astounding. However much you hate GW Bush and the post 9/11 fiasco - there were ACTUALLY TERRORISTS - they existed MATERIALLY - yes we all knew Iraq was a disaster.
But have you read Putins speech?
The man compares a western 'squeeze' on Russia as being similar to Nazi Germany. Honestly read it, its like something out of Mein Kamf. He thinks he is at war- refers to a 'Western Bloc' (i assume he means the EU, Canada, the US, the UK, and every sane state actor on earth), as being 'satellites' -
@Nordner - you dislike US foreign policy - I get it - I could pick apart your list but theres no reason. You have made your mind up - everyone is as bad as each other, seems to be your take. But im sincerely asking you - read the speech above. And tell me you find that credible. Read the speech, and tell me it doesnt send a chill down your spine. And tell me that America is just as bad as Russia
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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Utter nonsense.
By press being banned, i was referring to the British press - which did report on the war in Ireland - repeatedly, and was instrumental in bringing the democratic people in Britain on side for a Truce, and subsequently a treaty. The analogy was drawn between Ireland occupied by Britain, and the Ukraine potentially being conquered and occupied by Russia - Are you honestly suggesting there is a valid comparison? And that the Tans were as bad as the SS?
This is just whataboutery nonsense. You are arguing about BlacknTan conduct in the Irish War of Independence circa 1919-1921; on a thread about the Russian Invasion of Ukraine 2022 - You are saying that 'British crown forces' are similar to Putin's Russian Army who are indiscriminately leveling cities across Ukraine
This is insane
Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants
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The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances comprises three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994 to provide security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT). The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers: the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.
The memorandum prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan. As a result of other agreements and the memorandum, between 1993 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.
In fact, in early 90s Ukraine had the third largest nuclear stock globally, and was therefore a nuclear superpower. However, it willingly renounced the nuclear stock as part of the Budapest Memorandum and the stock was then destroyed. This is a huge diplomatic trump card Ukraine can play forever, because this was a huge step for humanity overall - it is the only nuclear superpower that has destroyed the stock so far 👍🏻
Now, Russia, UK, US promised the following to Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan..
- Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
- Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine
- Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their politics
- Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used"
- Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine
- Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments
Long story short - Russia and trusted in one sentence is an oxymoron. Russia doesn't respect international law, treaties or widely speaking international rule based order. Hence they didn't even turn up in the Hague Court. It's pointless signing any treaties with them they are not worth the paper they're written on. They are a despotic militaristic regime with expansionist appetite. Totally pointless signing treaties.
Not sure if any ceasefire or any peace treaty is the way forward for Zelensky, it would need to contain one sided right to intervene (NATO?) if Russian breaches it, but Kremlin and esp Putin won't ever accept this.
I see UN presence or even UN mission as a way forward. It will need to be very international, global high profile mission.
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Stop posting Russian lies. I won't even say word propaganda. It's BS, all lies.
- Ukrainian President is JEWISH - won 73% of popular vote.
- Ukrainian parliament has no far right party - the two that ran in elections got 1 and 2% respectively. The quorum is 5%.
- Spreading Nazi AND Communist ideology or display its symbols is illegal in Ukraine.
Far right or "nazi" have no objective, real or tangible influence in Ukrainian politics or life. It's a made up boogeyman and lie repeated by Kremlin million times in last 8 years to justify invasion and genocide.
And before you mention the lies about Azov BTG. Azov BTG is a 1 out Ukrainian 200 BTGs (1000+ men). It represents a fraction of a % of UA armed forces. It had some hooligans and various far right sympathisers joining during Russian invasion of Donbas - and that was clearly a REACTION to Russia cowardly invading with unmarked soldiers and fueling the "insurgency". Extremism rises up in insurgencies with outside powers' interventions (see IRA or Spanish civil war). If anyone is to blame for the creation, in grand scheme of things, irrelevant Azov BTG, then it's the Russian regime.
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quick Question .
Can putin be made appear in court for war crimes or can it proceed without him . I’m trying to think of the last person who was convicted of genocide and war crimes.( pretty sure it was Eastern Europe,)
I think that court proceeded in his absence . if that court proceeds with a conviction then how do you imprison such a person.
I assume in that case he will only have a limited number of countries that he can go to ?
any thoughts .
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You beat me to it! Exactly.
When Russian regime accuses you of something, that's exactly what THEY are doing or planning on doing.
Russia vs Ukraine in terms of human rights. Situation in Ukraine is far from optimal (bad) but Russian situation is a different league altogether (hell).
Also, the corruption index mentioned before on this thread - don't forget it's corruption PERCEPTION index. My opinion is that measuring it for Russia is pointless, and hence the index can be considered as 0 vs Ukraine 33.
Why? Russia has no press freedom (150th place on press freedom index last year, it will drop further now) to speak of, the population is brainwashed, Putin has $200b+ stolen cash stashed somewhere, so do his mates, the great modern Russian army is obviously and objectively in shambles, most of the modernization cash must have been stolen, and this only the tip of the iceberg. It's so corrupt country that you can't measure it. Hence 0 score for corruption.
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It's not whataboutry in relation to the Russian actions in the Ukraine. It was a response to your statement that the British and the Crown forces were civilised and not as bad as the SS, Russians etc.
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What were Putins reason for getting rid of the Ukrainian Neo-nazis even though Russia has them as well - starting with the Warner Clan. Do the Ukr neo - nazis run sorties into Russia ? Do they support similar groups in Russia. Do the group pose a serious threat to the politics of Ukr? - it apparently gets 2% of the national vote in recent elections. Has it been making statements that are anti- Russian or what.
its a classical example of the way Putin operates. Once he says something - no matter how irrelevant it is- it becomes yet another issue that ‘concerns/bothers him and he has us all addressing it and then it becomes yet another agenda point / another ‘real’ reason
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I'm not saying that they are on the same level as the Russians, but rather the concerns people have in relation to their actions and how they are potentially on a path to being the same, such as the GOP strategy of placing obstacles for people to be able to vote into legislation.
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