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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1





  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Public banking, a policy put forward by the Greens. For a long time I have seen discussions that Irish banking is not for for purpose. With KBc and Ulster bank pulling out we now have less competition

    Is it time for a public bank, one which is not as focused as just screwing the customer. I think I read before that a company tried to setup in ireland to do something similar but was blocked

    This would be based on the hugely successful model in Germany

    The policy is available here

    https://www.greenparty.ie/policies/public-banking



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Never heard of it to be honest, sounds good and anything to add a bit of competition to the few banks that are left would be a good thing you would think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    I think it is a great idea. I also might be trying to point out that the Green party have more policies than just energy



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    its a bit odd to start with but some subtle points are towards the end made.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Post the link to the studies then. The one I linked to was an meta analysis of the published body of research, so for you to convert possible into proven, you need to back that up with links to the studies that are the basis of your alleged proof.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    If you built nuclear sufficient to meet peak demand, you wouldn't need to use any gas when the winds not blowing and its dark. With 96% availability, only 4% of your needs might be met from gas, and none at all if you used some of the off peak capacity to make and store H2, while you export the rest of the excess to the UK or France. And nuclear costs less than offshore wind to build.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    1. you can’t just switch on an off nuclear plants before and after peak times.
    2. Building a nuclear plant doesn’t cost less then building wind turbines.
    3. france already have nuclear plants albeit there coming to end of life


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    As I mentioned already, talk to anyone in grid or a nuclear plant. Turning them off and on costs massive amounts of money. A nuclear plant should be running at a stable we are generating X...that is the best way to run them.

    That's why building a nuclear just to flick on/off or up/down all the time would be a poor decision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,299 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ive been an advocate for public banking for a few years now, this popped up again after the 08 crash, theres plenty of info out there on them, Scotland created its own public infrastructure bank only a couple of years ago, other eu countries such as germany and italy have had them for a long time, they play a critical part in their economies, but can become very problematic if allowed to, apparently Italy's banks are beyond dreadful. the bank of north Dakota is one of the main public banks of america, it pretty much avoided the 08 crash, as it avoids high risk activities that many non public banks engage in, such as derivatives trading etc.

    public banks generally have a mandate to serve the public, not just its share holders, they tend to be very good at providing loans to the public, including sme's. many public banks maintain lower wages for high level employees such as ceo's, compared to non public banks, and subsequent bonus payments also. i personally believe we urgently need to create such banks, from a public infrastructure bank, to public community banks, similar to the German kfw, and the German Sparkasse banks, infrastructure and general citizen banks respectively. this would give us an element of banking autonomy from the eu banking system, we would be able to provide a limited supply of capital to ourselves, for our own investments, but these would need to be very carefully managed, as miss management could potential bring down our whole banking system.

    its always important to remember, banks actually create the majority of our money supply in the form of credit, but since we dont have public banking systems here in ireland, we are reliant on non public banks, whos main objectives are to maximize share holder value for its share holders, this means we re never truly a priority to them, but we could change this with such systems....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    And that's why I said to meet peak demand and export the excess at non peak times the way France has been doing or turn it into H2 for HGV transport, buses, export, whatever. H2 for home heating would seem like a very good use for any excess capacity. There are innumerable profitable uses - making fertiliser, for instance. Germany would take any amount of H2 made with the non peak excess. The existing wind farm output could be dedicated to making liquid H2 for export because the intermittency wouldn't be an issue, I'd imagine.

    The UAE reactors cost less per GW than the next big Scottish offshore wind farm will.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    We are rapidly moving towards AIB & BOI & PTSB only in the Irish market which is not good, especially because all 3 of them are as all in cohoots.

    We need another option, I have a large dislike for AIB & BOI because of the treatment of customers. Imagine an AIB staff member went nuts on the phone at my brother after they overcharged him, telling him that because he was on a tracker mortgage he should be grateful to them. That is what you are dealing with

    Anyway, we should look at public banking, a great policy from the Greens but we need push from the people to move forward. FF/FG/SF etc will not rock the boat with the banks. Never. So it will be up to Greens and the population to get this up and running



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The 5.3 gwh nuclear plant cost over 24 billion dollars (in a country that allows slave labour and where the land its built on is basically free) so would cost much more if built in a non dictatorship country with respect for human rights)

    Where did you see Scottish offshore wind costing close to 5 billion dollars per gwh?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,299 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    unfortunately, modern economics tends to lead to monopolisation of markets, which i beleive is also occurring within our financial sectors, this is not good for any of us, including for the financial system itself. customers service is now a cost to these businesses, and we all know, costs are bad!

    there has been small groups pushing for such banks here, particularly since the crash, these movements have clearly failed, but at least more of us are now aware of such institutions. as far as im aware, sf once had public banks on their manifesto, post crash, but it has seemed to have disappeared, the proposal of such systems would in fact help their economic arguments, particularly in how to help pay for them....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    id agree with the first part, maybe put more emphasis on renewables and less on nuclear for waste, build cost reasons.

    As for the UAE there not exactly known for caring about the health and safety of the workers who actually built it nor for adherence to regulations



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel



    The popular parties will not go against the banks, they want them to support them getting into and staying in government. I don't see any of the parties on the famous left coming up with a public bank idea and people will ignore the Greens for coming up with it because seemingly all they want to do is talk about lettuce

    This is why I keep referring people to the Green actual policies. Some of them are actually very good and public bank is one of the best one



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,299 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...i think sf will try stick it to the banks, but they ll struggle, i think theyre gonna struggle in general, but thats another days debate, theres astonishing levels of complexities involved in our financial sectors, most employees arent trying to stiff the people, we created these institutions to help provide us with our needs, but they have now morphed into some train wreck predatory and parasitic mess. the overall goals of maximizing returns has now endangered us all, including these institutions themselves, but i do agree that public banks are now critically needed, to try stabilise our financial sectors as a whole



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    "a great policy from the Greens but we need push from the people to move forward. FF/FG/SF etc will not rock the boat with the banks. Never. So it will be up to Greens and the population to get this up and running"

    For someone claiming to have no allegiance to the green party, you do a hell of a party political broadcast whilst simultaneously kicking all the opposition.

    As this is a thread specifically about bad green party policies - I'd love to hear your criticism of their fairly spectacular lack of success to date in the banking sector. Fcuk it a bit of criticism any sector would do. How about energy? So far according to yourself it's all sunshine and lollipops.

    Very easy for parties to promise the moon and the stars whilst delivering fcuk all squared.

    #Voteforme. #Freegreenmoneyforeveryone

    Post edited by Mecanudo on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    As has been detailed the EU Commission now considers there is a role for natural gas and nuclear as a means to facilitate the transition towards a predominantly renewable-based future

    As for Europe and Ireland this is not optional. Ireland needs a safe secure and reliable form of energy in addition to renewable energy generation. Whilst we currently have indigenous sources of natural gas which supply approx 30% of our energy needs, the green party in its infinite wisdom have decided to enable legislation banning all future natural gas exploration.

    So far you've spectacularly failed to acknowledge that the idea of banning all future natural gas exploration is a humongousely stupid idea. You now seem to be rulling out any nuclear option?

    So where does that leave Ireland, when the present green party policy is that we shouldn't be dependent on imported fuels and mainland Europe is increasingly up **** creek without a paddle because of the invasion of Ukraine and sanctions against Russia?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Doesn't change the fact that Gormley was too lazy to get out of bed the night of the bank guarantee. Bank of North Dakota has existed since 1919 so calling the idea of a public bank a Green idea is bizarre.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Gormley, leader before Ryan, was asked to come in a 2am to cabinet meeting about bank guarantee in 2008, couldn't be arsed, half a million people lost their jobs, you don't feel any remorse for that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    I also have had bad experiences with attitudes of some banks and think it's going to be a disaster for ordinary people when we're down to only 3 institutions. I am by no means anti green as some would think but I would like to see things happening gradually and giving more people time to adjust to changes and not just dismissing alot of people's concerns and just keep saying that this is the way it's going to be. Definitely would support the idea of a public bank.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    I always remember a quote from my father many many years ago. "The only time you're guaranteed a loan from a bank is when you don't really need it"".

    I used to be a great advocate of the credit unions but lately they have become as hard as a bank to lend off in some cases.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Actually, his phone was switched off when an emergency cabinet conference call was called at 2am. Big difference between refusing to come to a meeting and not being aware it was taking place

    But regardless, gormleys presence or otherwise wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. Even if he objected he would have been outvoted by the FF ministers, and the greens didn't have a crystal ball or the expert advice that should have led them to bring down the government over that decision in the middle of a massive economic crisis

    Guaranteeing deposits and nationalising the banks might have actually been the right call to make, the bondholders should probably not have been included, but that's all complex ancient history

    Blaming the greens for the banking crisis is, yet another, completely distorted version of history



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Happen gradually?

    In the 80s it was mentioned about the Ozone and the problems about the environment

    its now 2022 and what have we improved? Our public transport system is worse than the 80s, we have become more reliant on cars etc

    Ireland has improved at a rapid rate but we have not improved our environment, we have made it worse

    Now I am all for gradual change but 40 odd year with little return is very very gradual



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    I not acknowledging the lng thing because it’s not a concern of mine

    a nuclear power plant will never be built in Ireland for two reasons NIMBY ism and its political partner NIMTOF ism.

    today a government department is recommending the state pay shell to stop pumping gas from the corrib field to keep it in reserve .

    The answer to the energy crisis is not just pump more fossil fuels cause it’s just kicking the can down the road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Maybe the poster might if he was actually John Gormely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,299 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    credit/debt plays a critical role in creating functioning economies and societies, it always has, long before banks existed, unfortunately our modern version of this has become highly dysfunctional, particularly since the advocation of deregulation of these markets, we urgently need to put these Jeanie's back in the bottle, or they might just destroy our economies and societies. it has now become critical for their growth and dominance, to maintain a strong rate of growth of credit and debt, but this only truly benefits their motivations and objectives, i do personally feel public banks are now urgently needed, to try bring the whole financial sector back towards more democratic means, as the alternative is far more plutocratic dominant, and highly dangerous, including for itself....

    the fundamental idea of money creation via credit/debt, is actually a good one, but the whole system has now become highly parasitic and predatory, again public banks generally have within their mandate, that they must serve the public, public banks such as the bank of north dakota and the german public banks do seem to be very much publicly liked and orientated, even with their potential dangers, i still advocate for them, again, they would give us an element of autonomy from global financial markets, who are just deemed hell bent on heavily indebting us, and extracting as much for themselves, and leaving us in destitute...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel




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