Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

jmreire · 20-03-2022 1:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807958#Comment_118807958

You mention Zelensky, the Russians and the Americans, Mary. Do you not think the Ukrainian people themselves have a choice in the matter? Because from where I'm looking at it, they do not want Russian rule, under any circumstances. Earlier, before the invasion, they could have left in their thousands, yet they did not, even after the invasion actually took place. On the contrary thousands of them travelled from all over the world back to Ukraine to fight the invaders. And they are still arriving, and with thousands of non-Ukrainian's coming to fight beside them. A principled people... death before dishonor, and No Surrender to Putin. This choice they make themselves.

Strazdas · 20-03-2022 2:08am

It appears Belarussian railway workers did some serious sabotaging of the Belarus to Ukraine railway lines today, thus preventing supplies getting through to the Russian invaders (reported by different sources). Well done to them.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1505260472492347395

amandstu · 20-03-2022 2:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808209#Comment_118808209

So Crimea ,and the two Eastern regions would have no say in whether or not they wished to be independent or wished to be a political part of either Russia or Ukraine?

The arrangements would be made over their heads?

There would not need to be proper internationally monitored elections to determine the views of the populations?

Would that be glossed over?

amandstu · 20-03-2022 2:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808224#Comment_118808224

Well done indeed.Is it true though ?

Are there any reliable sources reporting on this?

Extremely important if there is anything to this at all

The Belarusian people would be ,in the long term as much at risk from the Russian contagion as Ukraine itself and it would be in their interest to support the Ukranians ,who are also fighting for them - to the best of their abilities

Strazdas · 20-03-2022 2:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808235#Comment_118808235

I've seen it reported on completely different Twitter accounts this evening, including one by the main Belarussian opposition party. Also, it seems there have been other acts of sabotage going on since the invasion started, this was merely the biggest one (so far).

amandstu · 20-03-2022 2:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808238#Comment_118808238

Good .Let's hope that Putin's legs in Belarus (and elsewhere) turn gangrenous and rot whatever is left of his brain.

McGiver · 20-03-2022 10:35am

Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Russian political dissident and prisoner is quite clear. Calls Putin a bandit and questions the Western "leaders".

Kremlin and especially Putin understand only brute force and strength. The wishy washy Scholz and Macron who just makes pointless calls to Putin.

https://khodorkovsky.com/mikhail-khodorkovsky-on-how-to-deal-with-the-bandit-in-the-kremlin/?amp=1

McGiver · 20-03-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808200#Comment_118808200

Zelensky knows that only force works with Kremlin, he's not an idiot. At this stage all Ukrainians know that talks are nonsense. Putin will never yield unless the Red Army is crippled and Russia in default.

The sole reason why Ukrainians negotiate is so that they can eliminate Russian propaganda "We were ready to talk, they didn't want to". There's zero expectation of any result from these talks.

I have this confirmed by my sources directly in Ukraine.

johnnyskeleton · 20-03-2022 11:17am

Mod note:

A few posts cleaned up. Please read the charter. Please don't make snide or personal comments on thread.

Also, please refrain from large paragraphs in bold or caps - it is disruptive to the thread.

Please don't comment on moderation on thread or accuse other posters of being a troll etc. Report the post. If you don't get an immediate action from the volunteer mods on a Saturday night, the posts will be looked at the next morning.

It's important to remember too that if you decide that instead of doing the above, you want to comment on moderation or accuse other posters of being trolls on thread, the mods are basically hamstrung when they do get to the posts, as it has ceased to be one poster causing problems and has become an "everyone at it" type scenario. You will lose the moral high ground, will be responsible for derailing the thread yourself and possibly will have to be warned.

pixelburp · 20-03-2022 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808585#Comment_118808585

That may be true, but what else does Europe do? Embrace the strong man so we can bomb Russia? Macron et al are political leaders and I don't think we should castigate them for not being brutal aggressors. Hitting Russia with sanctions hurts ordinary Russian's but it remains - for now - the least-worst option.

Cos the key question is: all well and good questioning the leadership of Europe, but how long would public support for military action last? If, say, the no fly zone was met with the shooting down of NATO assets and we had to enforce or escalate? I'm not sure how far morale or support would last the moment European body bags start totting up.

It's easy to be a hurler on the ditch here, especially a wealthy one (not sure if Khodorosky still has his money mind you) but if NATO or the EU makes the wrong play, we're at war, and a huge chunk of Eastern EU gets bombed or shelled into a crater. While every cliché and bias about "the west" gets confirmed by those champing at the bit to declare this the fault of that convenient boogeyman. We've already those self loathing opinions here.

I don't buy into this theory that all bullies know is being met with strength either. I remember those types from school - and those who swung back. Sometimes it works, but when it didn't? The bully just hit them harder, and more often as well, cos they got the victim down to their level. In this instance, Putin calls our bluff and fires back at those enforcing a no fly zone ... then what?

This is problem of being the morally superior, and basing ones institutions on peace and self-defence. It's infuriating in a situation this ostensibly black and white when the bully swings his fists, but for now all we can do is arm the Ukrainians and fight this by proxy.

I think Putin has written his own obituary here and I'd be somewhat shocked if he isn't ousted within 5 years (I remain terrified of the Next Guy mind you). There have to be very powerful figures enraged by his strangling of Russia's soft power and I guess while the military support Putin he's safe for now.

McGiver · 20-03-2022 11:24am

We're in a 1984 situation in Russia. If you can attribute any validity to the following survey. The sample was ~1600 people, the survey was done via phone between 11 and 15 March in Russia.

For those who can't read Cyrillic or don't understand Ukrainian.

According to the survey:

86.6 % support attacking the EU (in general)
75.5% support attacking Poland (they really have an issue with the Polish 😎)
41% support attacking Czechia, Slovakia Hungary or Bulgaria
39.6% support attacking Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia

Capt'n Midnight · 20-03-2022 11:55am

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-mariupol-school-sheltering-civilians-hit-by-bomb-live-updates/a-61188441

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said Russia and Ukraine were getting closer to an agreement on "critical" issues. ... "We can say we are hopeful for a ceasefire if the sides do not take a step back from the current positions," he said, without elaborating.

A de-escalation would be nice.

It would be interesting if the occupied areas were allowed have a UN run plebiscite to decide which country they wanted to be in.

liamtech · 20-03-2022 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808226#Comment_118808226

It is repugnant to me that Russia should gain an inch of territory from this war. But the fact is, i think its inevitable. The important thing IMHO, is that Ukraine survives, and joins the EU. And that it has western backed security guarantees, preferably backed by NATO or the US.

I think sadly, they will lose territory. Crimea is the most obvious case, as it was DeFacto annexed. Some territory in the east my also be lost.

This is not unprecedented. A lot of people have compared this to the Winter War between Finland and the Soviet Union 1939/40. And they correctly discuss the fact that Finland clobbered the Soviets for quite a while. Unfortunately the Finns also lost a lot of territory at the end of that conflict. That needs to be remembered

McGiver · 20-03-2022 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808731#Comment_118808731

Of course we can't go to war with Russia directly. But 5 years time line won't cut it, that's just way too long. It's a ridiculous idea. You're showing exactly some of the weakness Putin is leveraging. Defeatist. Putin knows this and he will go further - Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea, Donbas, Ukraine... It doesn't stop here if not acted upon. Mere 4 weeks ago nobody believed he would invade Ukraine.

To be honest, the Western & Southern EU attitude is appalling. Ironically, the UK has been different and very good so far - providing intelligence, providing decent military supplies, enforcing very harsh sanctions including commitment to stop buying Russian oil and gas this year.

The only ones pushing for hardest sanctions within the EU are Central and Eastern European countries because a) they have had the "honour" of experiencing Russian soldiers' boots on their heads previously and b) this is happening right at their borders so it's essentially an existential threat. It's nice talking about this wishy washy in Ireland, because it's happening 1200 kms from here, but imagine Slovakia or Poland; yesterday Russian missiles exploded 50 kms from their borders...

The EU not acting tough enough to quickly end this war in its inception is very much reminiscent of the 1938 situation (or perhaps 1937). We know how this ended. Or Bosnia where the EU failed miserably as well until the US intervened. There's a pattern developing here. It's just very alarming that Europe once again is unable to deal with a situation on its own territory, in its own space/neighbourhood. So once again, the US have to come to the rescue. While this is good (US isolationism would be disastrous) it degrades the EU into 2nd tier power reliant on the US. I don't think this the EU's aspiration...

About the bullies - you can't be more wrong. We're dealing with a thug and a dictator, that's beyond a bully. So in your analogy, give the victim a taser to defend himself from the thug next time he tries something and also report the bully to the principal so that he's thrown out of the school altogether and given a fine & hours of mandatory coomunity work 😉

NATO driven no fly zone is a nonsense given the poor Russian Air force performance so far and would achieve a little at a huge cost of escalation. But could be possible under the UN mandate, especially for humanitarian purposes.

What Ukraine really needs is - air defense systems (SAMs), heavy weaponry (Javelin, Stinger), weapon supplies of all sorts, intelligence and radar data, diplomatic support at the UN etc and most importantly harshest possible economic and technological sanctions that will starve the Russian army of manpower, supplies and ability to repair/maintain/modernise. 🇺🇦

jmreire · 20-03-2022 12:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808851#Comment_118808851

Yes, 100%. The EU which was and is mainly a trading block, needs to change big time, especially where security is concerned. An EU army now being an essential part. A massive reversal of trading patterns, (especially with China) and an even bigger drive to reduce dependency on fossil fuels. At the moment, the EU is caught over a barrel with the oil and gas dependence on Putin, but by next winter, they will not be so ( if at all) dependent, and the money will stop flowing into Putins war chest. If NATO were to become involved full time, then according to some posters ( obviously with military experience ) it would be a short war, a matter of 2/3 weeks maximum to clear all Russian troops and equipment out of Ukraine ( and further afield too) I would agree with this assessment, having seen NATO in action. But most likely Putin will continue for as long as he can. He will not go quietly into the night.

McGiver · 20-03-2022 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808851#Comment_118808851

Have to add for completeness that the Northern EU countries' attitude is good (unlike Western and Southern) 😎

As expected, Sweden changed long term policy of "military non engagement" and then Finland did as well. They're closer to the threat zone and also had the honour with the Russian regimes in the past, so that helps focusing the mind.

Denmark has clearly committed to stopping buying Russian gas and double down on renewables. Perhaps a role model for Ireland (one would hope)...

liamtech · 20-03-2022 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808037#Comment_118808037

Another possibility. If we remember that this war was supposed to be over in 3 days - and take as fact the idea that these uniforms are chosen a while in advance

Those uniforms may not be a protest - they MAY HAVE INTENDED to be a celebration. The Ukrainian Colors - with a Russian Flag patch over them. Ukraine as part of Russia -

Im not saying that is DEFINITELY the case, but it IS POSSIBLE - i find it hard to believe that Roscosmos would allow something as blatant as a protest AGAINST the war. The fellow who runs Roscosmos is a well known Putinist. (see links below) The fact no one in the media seems to have suggested this possibility (that i know of, happy to be corrected) - is strange -

ALL IMHO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Rogozin

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/watch-russia-removes-flags-of-countries-from-rocket-retains-india-s-tricolor-101646290924324.html

Nordner · 20-03-2022 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807303#Comment_118807303

"Russia? Backed into a corner? One of the largest countries in the worlds with an arsenal of WMDs? Really?"

Yes, really. Otherwise this invasion makes no logical sense. Russias concerns regarding NATO expansion are not new, see Georgia 2008 as an example.

There have been many examples of where Russia were allowed get away with criminal behaviour in the recent past, as I have already pointed out. These were opportunities for severe sanctions and decisive actions by a United Western front but, for whatever reason, we failed to act and so Putin sees this as the green light to do, basically, whatever the **** he wants.

Trump and Brexit were most definitely influenced by Russian psy-ops via Social Media etc and the deep divisions caused by both were clearly to Russia's advantage.

A distracted and divided West is exactly what Russia and China want. So we are busily arguing over trans rights and abortion and vaccine mandates and masks and all the while we remain heavily reliant on Russian energy and cheap labour for Western consumer products manufactured in China.

We do not stand for anything when we are happy to trade with Mafia states like Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Qatar etc and exploit cheap, un-unionised labour across the 3rd World and developing countries while paying only lip-service to human rights and rule of law.

China and Russia will continue to exploit our hypocrisy until such a time as our actions speak louder than our words.

But with profit and power being the overarching motives for the policies of our leaders in political, industrial and banking sectors, I would not hold my breath.

God love Ukraine and Yemen and all the other conflict zones and proxy wars around the globe and I hope that the slaughter stops soon for all our sake.

fly_agaric · 20-03-2022 1:46pm

@McGiver would agree with alot of what you wrote (about the need to make sanctions as hard as possible and give as much aid as possible to Ukraine) but think it is a bit harsh on the EU in light of what has gone before now.

Aside from fact that the EU is not a military power, the member states have had a big problem with their own contradicting foreign policies towards Russia pre war. France and Germany were all for engaging and increasing ties with it. I think France even wanted to sell Putin very large amounts of weapons at one point. Imagine that had actually happened.

Former Warsaw pact members (apart from Hungary) and the Baltic states were always suspicious of and hostile towards Russia and believing interconnections like the Russia-Germany gas pipelines were just creating the leverage for Russia to use at some stage when needed (very wise as it turns out now).

As regards the military aid, many of the EU members are very weak, militaries of the Western EU countries (those not bordering or close to Russia!) have been defunded and completely decayed away relative to what they were at end of cold war. I mean I've seen people sneering at Russias' military during this war, but to be honest without US/UK, I think many of the EU nations are in no great state at all. I wonder (and I admit I'm not speaking with any authority of expertise/knowledge...) how well they'd respond were Russia trying this on in Baltic states etc. instead of Ukraine with zero or little assistance provided from US and UK (which you could imagine is not completely impossible in future given some concerning political trends in both). I wonder how much weapons likes of Germany can actually provide quickly. I think Germany made some promises of small anti tank and anti aircraft weapons to Ukraine recently under pressure of the situation, and then found out that they don't actually have all of the weapons they promised ready to go quickly.

Conscription has ended for some there now and from what I have read (pre this war) there is a philosophy of absolute pacifism and an increasing contempt towards even idea of having a military from the population (especially the young, of active service age) and belief it is a dead end as a career. There is an opposition to the US bases and arguments they should be shut down and their troops removed from Germany (considered as staging posts for making war in ME/Africa etc). I expect that sort of attitude is widely replicated across the Western EU that's a safe distance from Russia. I mean its certainly the case here about our own defence forces or spending any money whatsoever on it, so I speculate (may be wrong?), why wouldn't it be the case in all the other Western EU members who haven't been involved in a serious war or had a large external threat facing them requiring a well equipped/prepared military for about a generation now? It'd be the same thing really underlying such attitudes, a (perhaps somewhat false and illusory) feeling of security I think.

liamtech · 20-03-2022 1:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809165#Comment_118809165

@Nordner you are SO CLOSE to being correct at the beginning of the above post

Yes, really. Otherwise this invasion makes no logical sense. - Just remove the word 'otherwise' and you are home and dry

Russia is 'using Nato' (along with 'Nazis under the bed in Donbass) to retake a former Satellite - its that simple. Allowing any legitimacy to their side by way of

NAZIS in Kyiv
NATO 'Imperialism'
Western backed 'coups'

Its nonsense.

I know too (and John Mearsheimer has stated this in his seminal text 'The tragedy of Great Power politics') - the actions of a large state, often impact the smaller states around it

The Big player, forces the smaller ones to group together, form alliances
The Big Player sees these alliances as a threat, and only amps up its threats, and provocations
forcing the smaller players to re-double their efforts, and ironically, become more opposed to the Big Player
and on and on it goes

Russia is entirely to blame for this. Trying to find justifications for its actions (by way of highlighting NATO and non-existent coups) - is just wrong.

I agree with much of what you said above. Russia has gotten away with a lot in the past. And that was wrong - the world IS TAKING ACTION now - the Soft Power front does matter. And we just have to wait and see, and support Ukraine 100%

No offense intended, a general response to some of what you have said the past few days

liamtech · 20-03-2022 2:07pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_dilemma

Just a general recommendation - the above is the Wiki page on the Security dilemma - Its worth a read

Im including it here because i sense there are some confused by Mearsheimer and Walt (realism in general) - and how it relates to the Ukraine. Iv tried to find a Free-to-air journal article that i could recommend but i cannot find any. All are pay-walled

But the above should suffice

In it you can read about balances of power, alliance building and the 'Uncertainty of Intentions'

McGiver · 20-03-2022 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809005#Comment_118809005

Agree with a lot what you say. If the EU doesn't make further steps towards some sort of a Proto-EU Army now then I don't think it ever will. It would be a huge strategic mistake with long term consequences. It's now or never - I'm watching Macron who's been the one pushing this idea the most but haven't seen much yet.

The "army" can and should exist parallel to NATO at least initially, because the more traditionally trans-atlanticist countries (CZ, PL, SK, Baltic, maybe DA, NO and perhaps the UK if they were part of it) would be skeptical otherwise, on the other hand EU army would be much more palatable to Sweden and Finland, and even Ireland perhaps.

One thing though, it's not only about the extent of the sanctions applied to Russia but especially about the speed of them being applied. If you watch all Zelensky's speeches,to the US Congress, to the Bundestag, and others, he is always making the point of urgency very prominent. And he knows why. It's a matter of survival and "next winter" is simply too slow. By next winter Ukraine/Kyiv will have likely fallen.

Based reports, the biggest block and obstacle to harsher sanctions within the EU now is Germany (cynicism and weakness) and Hungary (Putin's trojan horse), this is going to be interesting. I think even the Dutch now know it will hurt (and cost) and have conceded. Irish government (esp Varadkar) has been the in the "hardest possible sanctions" camp, so excellent so far.

McGiver · 20-03-2022 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809165#Comment_118809165

Unlike Saudi and Qatar, Russia is on our doorstep, has missiles pointed at us (Kaliningrad) and is waging series of wars on/Close to European territory. This is a critical difference.

As much as I despise backward, despotic regimes in Asia/Africa that happen to sit on large oil/gas reserves purely by stroke of luck, until we move to the fusion power and full carbon-free / renewable energy, we need to get the resources from somewhere, that's the reality. We can't be completely sinless and clean in this reality, unfortunately. Out of pure pragmatism it's much smarter to get the resources from further away from your territory, rather than financing an insane neighbour who uses your money to destabilise your neighbourhood. We don't live in any utopia - this is what it is.

pixelburp · 20-03-2022 2:28pm

The EU as we know it may be about to change. Brexit started the self reflection, and the Ukrainian war may crystallise a sense of ,"where are we going?". The status quo can't be the medium term future.

As to relative armed forces, what Russia probably has above European ones right now is experience. There may be question marks over the quality and sophistication of Russian equipment but I daresay some of these divisions have fought in 2, 3 theatres of war (and are currently bombing actual theatres). How many of the constituent EU forces can say the same? Maybe the French, is that it?

liamtech · 20-03-2022 2:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809294#Comment_118809294

Hungary's PM may be in an awkward position - yes he is right wing - and arguably Euro-skeptic - But in terms of his possible PRO-RUSSIAN stances - The Hungarian people have history with Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956

The above weighs heavily on the minds of that country's citizens - I think its fair to say they will eventually play ball - Not speculation to suggest that many Pro Russian politicians in Europe are - shall we say - 'reevaluating their life choices'

Your point on Germany is Apt though - If Germany falls in line (i believe they will BTW) - then the EU will be united - imho

amandstu · 20-03-2022 2:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808732#Comment_118808732

Not with you about 1984?The book ,the year?

At first I assumed that the survey was from 1984 but you say it is recent.

amandstu · 20-03-2022 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808850#Comment_118808850

Wonder what today's population of Karelia et al would choose if given a choice? Russia or Finland?

liamtech · 20-03-2022 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809412#Comment_118809412

Im not familiar with the demographics of the region - but certainly the Russians living there now, probably consider it Russian territory, and would have no allegiance to 'western powers'

johnnyskeleton · 20-03-2022 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809294#Comment_118809294

Do we actually need an EU army though? As against what is already there? Currently there is Article 42 of the TEU which is a requirement to do everything you can to aid any EU country that is attacked. This was watered down (thanks to Ireland) by the Protocol to the Lisbon Treaty, so it is not as strong as Article 5, but I would argue that while it is more flexible than Article 5 for things such as Terrorist attacks, grey area wars where it is unclear who started it, internal armed conflict etc, in the event of an outright war of aggression by a non-EU state against an EU state (let's say, for argument's sake, that the UK built up a large force in Northern Ireland and then claimed that it had to invade to protect English citizens living in Ireland), the other EU Member States would be obliged to do everything they can to assist Ireland.

In terms of operations, one area where it could be useful is intelligence gathering and cyber warfare. But there is already ENISA which co-ordinates cyber security and CSDP infrastructure for intelligence. These bodies certainly could receive more funding, but that does not have to be done within an EU army.

Another area where it could be useful if there were joint procurement/equipment. This is very complicated, but basically there are lots of different types of military equipment across the EU, although NATO countries are trying to have uniform equipment. To my mind, this argument is more about economics than defence - people wanting to increase Europe's military industrial complex. This is highly contenuous, not least because it has been tried before with mixed results (e.g. France pulling out of the Eurofighter project and focusing on Dassault) and also because the former Warsaw pact countries still use a lot of former soviet equipment (see Poland's plan to swap old Mikoyan fighters for F16s). The lack of centralisation also means that you get equipment like the SAAB Gripen which is not as good a multirole fighter as the others, but is significantly cheaper and is an excellent interceptor. If things were centralised, there would likely be only one main type of fighter such as the US does with the F35 which has benefits, but also comes at a cost.

Coupled with the fact that America is allied with all of the EU, produces equipment that far and away exceeds most other manufacturers on quality (though not necessarily on price), happily supplies Europe with these weapons and would be quite upset if the EU were to turn around and start competing with them in this highly important and lucrative industry, and ultimately the idea of a single EU wide procurement/industrial body will never work.

A further problem is that France, Spain and Italy want the capacity to conduct expeditionary operations, but Germany, Ireland etc are dead against it, means that as matters stand each country can look after its own unique policy and needs, without having to either participate implicitly in an unwanted operation outside of Europe e.g. bombing Syria on the one hand, nor being restrained from doing so if needs be. Austria will not have any interest in a Navy etc. This is the main existential issue for a United European Army. It will simply never happen so long as there are different priorities. And I don't think those priorities will change any time soon.

The organisational structure of an EU army is also a problem. Would there be a single voice such as Federica Mogherini who makes decisions in the event of a war? How would the Baltic States feel if the EU's defence policy was to absorb an attack through them and seek to draw a line in Poland? How would the neutral Scandanavians feel if they were instructed to open up a relieving front? Or the Germans if they were to be the centre of operations and so become a major target? None of these things would be politically palatable.

The only other area where it might be relevant is in the EU deploying troops to other countries where they are needed such as NATO's forward presence in the Baltic States. However, there are already EU battlegroups (in which Ireland participates, by the way) and again, these can be increased without having to be part of a formal EU army. Countries with similar defence policies can join the appropriate battlegroup (e.g. Ireland participating in the Swedish/Finish led Nordic battlegroup).

So ultimately, there is no real need for an EU army and the desire to create one doesn't come from military need but rather from the Euro-federalist desire to centralise things. What is perhaps needed is greater defence spending by each individual country, or increased funding of EU wide intelligence and cyber capabilities. But otherwise the idea of an EU army is a political idea, and not a particularly attractive one either.

growleaves · 20-03-2022 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809397#Comment_118809397

He must mean the book, and perhaps the division of the world into three competing zones engaged in perpetual war: Oceania (the West), Eurasia (Russia) and Eastasia (China).

Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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