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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    And that's why I said to meet peak demand and export the excess at non peak times the way France has been doing or turn it into H2 for HGV transport, buses, export, whatever. H2 for home heating would seem like a very good use for any excess capacity. There are innumerable profitable uses - making fertiliser, for instance. Germany would take any amount of H2 made with the non peak excess. The existing wind farm output could be dedicated to making liquid H2 for export because the intermittency wouldn't be an issue, I'd imagine.

    The UAE reactors cost less per GW than the next big Scottish offshore wind farm will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    We are rapidly moving towards AIB & BOI & PTSB only in the Irish market which is not good, especially because all 3 of them are as all in cohoots.

    We need another option, I have a large dislike for AIB & BOI because of the treatment of customers. Imagine an AIB staff member went nuts on the phone at my brother after they overcharged him, telling him that because he was on a tracker mortgage he should be grateful to them. That is what you are dealing with

    Anyway, we should look at public banking, a great policy from the Greens but we need push from the people to move forward. FF/FG/SF etc will not rock the boat with the banks. Never. So it will be up to Greens and the population to get this up and running



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,603 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The 5.3 gwh nuclear plant cost over 24 billion dollars (in a country that allows slave labour and where the land its built on is basically free) so would cost much more if built in a non dictatorship country with respect for human rights)

    Where did you see Scottish offshore wind costing close to 5 billion dollars per gwh?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    unfortunately, modern economics tends to lead to monopolisation of markets, which i beleive is also occurring within our financial sectors, this is not good for any of us, including for the financial system itself. customers service is now a cost to these businesses, and we all know, costs are bad!

    there has been small groups pushing for such banks here, particularly since the crash, these movements have clearly failed, but at least more of us are now aware of such institutions. as far as im aware, sf once had public banks on their manifesto, post crash, but it has seemed to have disappeared, the proposal of such systems would in fact help their economic arguments, particularly in how to help pay for them....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    id agree with the first part, maybe put more emphasis on renewables and less on nuclear for waste, build cost reasons.

    As for the UAE there not exactly known for caring about the health and safety of the workers who actually built it nor for adherence to regulations



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel



    The popular parties will not go against the banks, they want them to support them getting into and staying in government. I don't see any of the parties on the famous left coming up with a public bank idea and people will ignore the Greens for coming up with it because seemingly all they want to do is talk about lettuce

    This is why I keep referring people to the Green actual policies. Some of them are actually very good and public bank is one of the best one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...i think sf will try stick it to the banks, but they ll struggle, i think theyre gonna struggle in general, but thats another days debate, theres astonishing levels of complexities involved in our financial sectors, most employees arent trying to stiff the people, we created these institutions to help provide us with our needs, but they have now morphed into some train wreck predatory and parasitic mess. the overall goals of maximizing returns has now endangered us all, including these institutions themselves, but i do agree that public banks are now critically needed, to try stabilise our financial sectors as a whole



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    "a great policy from the Greens but we need push from the people to move forward. FF/FG/SF etc will not rock the boat with the banks. Never. So it will be up to Greens and the population to get this up and running"

    For someone claiming to have no allegiance to the green party, you do a hell of a party political broadcast whilst simultaneously kicking all the opposition.

    As this is a thread specifically about bad green party policies - I'd love to hear your criticism of their fairly spectacular lack of success to date in the banking sector. Fcuk it a bit of criticism any sector would do. How about energy? So far according to yourself it's all sunshine and lollipops.

    Very easy for parties to promise the moon and the stars whilst delivering fcuk all squared.

    #Voteforme. #Freegreenmoneyforeveryone

    Post edited by Mecanudo on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    As has been detailed the EU Commission now considers there is a role for natural gas and nuclear as a means to facilitate the transition towards a predominantly renewable-based future

    As for Europe and Ireland this is not optional. Ireland needs a safe secure and reliable form of energy in addition to renewable energy generation. Whilst we currently have indigenous sources of natural gas which supply approx 30% of our energy needs, the green party in its infinite wisdom have decided to enable legislation banning all future natural gas exploration.

    So far you've spectacularly failed to acknowledge that the idea of banning all future natural gas exploration is a humongousely stupid idea. You now seem to be rulling out any nuclear option?

    So where does that leave Ireland, when the present green party policy is that we shouldn't be dependent on imported fuels and mainland Europe is increasingly up **** creek without a paddle because of the invasion of Ukraine and sanctions against Russia?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Doesn't change the fact that Gormley was too lazy to get out of bed the night of the bank guarantee. Bank of North Dakota has existed since 1919 so calling the idea of a public bank a Green idea is bizarre.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Gormley, leader before Ryan, was asked to come in a 2am to cabinet meeting about bank guarantee in 2008, couldn't be arsed, half a million people lost their jobs, you don't feel any remorse for that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    I also have had bad experiences with attitudes of some banks and think it's going to be a disaster for ordinary people when we're down to only 3 institutions. I am by no means anti green as some would think but I would like to see things happening gradually and giving more people time to adjust to changes and not just dismissing alot of people's concerns and just keep saying that this is the way it's going to be. Definitely would support the idea of a public bank.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    I always remember a quote from my father many many years ago. "The only time you're guaranteed a loan from a bank is when you don't really need it"".

    I used to be a great advocate of the credit unions but lately they have become as hard as a bank to lend off in some cases.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,603 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Actually, his phone was switched off when an emergency cabinet conference call was called at 2am. Big difference between refusing to come to a meeting and not being aware it was taking place

    But regardless, gormleys presence or otherwise wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. Even if he objected he would have been outvoted by the FF ministers, and the greens didn't have a crystal ball or the expert advice that should have led them to bring down the government over that decision in the middle of a massive economic crisis

    Guaranteeing deposits and nationalising the banks might have actually been the right call to make, the bondholders should probably not have been included, but that's all complex ancient history

    Blaming the greens for the banking crisis is, yet another, completely distorted version of history



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Happen gradually?

    In the 80s it was mentioned about the Ozone and the problems about the environment

    its now 2022 and what have we improved? Our public transport system is worse than the 80s, we have become more reliant on cars etc

    Ireland has improved at a rapid rate but we have not improved our environment, we have made it worse

    Now I am all for gradual change but 40 odd year with little return is very very gradual



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    I not acknowledging the lng thing because it’s not a concern of mine

    a nuclear power plant will never be built in Ireland for two reasons NIMBY ism and its political partner NIMTOF ism.

    today a government department is recommending the state pay shell to stop pumping gas from the corrib field to keep it in reserve .

    The answer to the energy crisis is not just pump more fossil fuels cause it’s just kicking the can down the road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Maybe the poster might if he was actually John Gormely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    credit/debt plays a critical role in creating functioning economies and societies, it always has, long before banks existed, unfortunately our modern version of this has become highly dysfunctional, particularly since the advocation of deregulation of these markets, we urgently need to put these Jeanie's back in the bottle, or they might just destroy our economies and societies. it has now become critical for their growth and dominance, to maintain a strong rate of growth of credit and debt, but this only truly benefits their motivations and objectives, i do personally feel public banks are now urgently needed, to try bring the whole financial sector back towards more democratic means, as the alternative is far more plutocratic dominant, and highly dangerous, including for itself....

    the fundamental idea of money creation via credit/debt, is actually a good one, but the whole system has now become highly parasitic and predatory, again public banks generally have within their mandate, that they must serve the public, public banks such as the bank of north dakota and the german public banks do seem to be very much publicly liked and orientated, even with their potential dangers, i still advocate for them, again, they would give us an element of autonomy from global financial markets, who are just deemed hell bent on heavily indebting us, and extracting as much for themselves, and leaving us in destitute...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    You should concern yourself more about the Amazon rainforest, China and India or the US to mention a few. I think we have made alot of good changes in this country and alot more than some of the countries mentioned when we all know if the above is not addressed no matter what we do will all be in vain. That's a Fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Sounds good and hopefully it's just not a proposal threw out there to keep people happy and not be acted on.Be interesting now to see how much attention is paid to this proposal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,214 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Change like evolution happens on a phased basis.

    Green party supporters are happy to make excuses for, or ignore, that some of the major economies on the planet are responsible for the majority of CO2 emissions (64% of all hothouse gases) by their use of coal to generate electricity with few if any of them doing anything much to change, or if COP26 is anything to go by, even commit to changing that. Some even building new coal burning plants. Even for Europe with the present crisis some looking highly likely to increase their use of coal to fill the gap for unreliable and intermittent wind energy.

    Yet these same supporters and the Irish Green Party somehow believe that Ireland can make the change from non-renewables to renewables in one fell swoop while ignoring the gap where it is clear that cannot be achieved. Renewables, or more accurately in our case, undependable wind energy is showing that on a daily basis and if anyone doubts that then take a look at your electricity bill.

    Nobody is opposed to 100% clean renewable energy, but the question is how are we to get there. Even though there aren`t many others exactly breaking their necks or hurting their economies attempting to do it. The Irish Green Party are on a rampage opposing and banning any energy sources that can fill the gap,while being cheered on here by their supporters who when asked the same question have no answers. Blind faith is not going to change reality.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Hothouse gases 🤪, you can’t bring yourself to say greenhouse gases in case you go into meltdown.

    Without the greenhouse effect Earth would be like the moon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,214 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Agreed that Gormley`s presence would have probably made little or no difference, but I always felt that his phone being switched off was a convenient excuse.

    He was a cabinet member so I knew there was a major problem brewing. Having his phone switched off to me left him more gormless than Gormley in that it gave him the "Nothing to do with me, I knew nothing about it and if I had......" excuse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    And yet you're here discussing the issue of energy generation, the need for additional energy sources in the transition to renewables.

    Part of that answer for Ireland is indeed fossil fuels in the form of natural gas exploration. The green party have fuked up. It's now time that's fixed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    Ya I’m discussing it what of it. burning the remnants of fish and dinosaurs that died millions of years ago as a means of extracting energy is not sustainable.

    the Stone Age didn’t end for the lack of stones



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Our CO2 per headcount is higher than all of them. So look after our own mess first and then we can point fingers at others



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,214 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    If you want to look at it in those terms, greenhouses are only heated by the sun, whereas hothouses are heated by artificial sources. On that basis I can only assume your answer to the point I made is that you see the sun being the solution of how we move in one fell swoop from needing non-renewables to fill the gap of unreliable wind energy to 100% renewables.

    I can see where you get that idea from. With the Irish Green party rampaging around attempting to ban the use of all and everything non-renewable then there isn`t much else left to fill that gap and keep the lights on. But then how practical is that idea ?

    Again I am all ears as to how you see that working.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    Who is making any claims about sustainability? We're dealing with the here and now and the need to have a backup to renewables in a period of transition and possibly beyond.

    So some of the top non renewable options on top of our current energy sources are:

    *Nuclear. No fish and dinosaurs involved. Hugely controversial. Loved by some hated by others.

    *Natural gas. Not just fish and dinosaur bits, but also decomposed organic plant matter and considered a lower carbon/cleaner fossil fuel.

    *First two listed by the EU as being suitable as a means to facilitate the transition towards a predominantly renewable-based future

    Hydrogen. A potential source but technology is uncertain at this point in time

    Storage. Many issues including large scale electric storage is hugely expensive and comes with significant environmental issues relating to mining and known risk of fire.

    Other inc & etc

    Thats the reality at this moment in time. But yes without depenable sources of energy generation, Ireland and the rest of the world, will most likely start looking back to the stone age.

    Maybe that's a solution, though not one I'd promote tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    You may want to look at your figures again

    The C02 emissions per capita for the US is twice what it is Ireland

    India whose given figure per capita is low is not believed to be in any way accurate and China whilst slightly below our own, now exceeds the EU average per capita emissions for C02 and is rising whilst overall Europe per capita rate is falling

    The top five countries currently producing the most CO2 are China, the United States, India, Russia, and Japan.

    If those countries fail to step up to the mark then we are simply pissing into the wind.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/092915/5-countries-produce-most-carbon-dioxide-co2.asp



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    I have heard this argument before. Now if you put up the amounts of CO2 produced by these countries compared to Ireland you would see unless these super polluters of countries drastically change, whatever we do is futile I'm afraid. I know that you don't want to believe this but it's true.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    I didn’t say you where making any claims about sustainability.

    Uranium is also mined to you know.

    Gas at the point of combustion is cleaner then coal just don’t count the mining, transportation and storage emissions of the gas itself.

    Hydrogen is doable now but only for industry.

    when was the last time your battery in your toothbrush or cordless drill went on fire they have solved that issue.

    Nuclear is hugely expensive

    Thinking change in terms of cost is a fools game tge attitude needs to be a investment to a better society



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,214 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    From your username, assuming it refers to the part of country you come from, there is an expression used there that covers that.

    Pissing into the wind



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    You sit are %100 correct. I was trying to be a bit more subtle. Unless the super pollution countries start to really get serious about Green issues and policys all the policys our Government are introducing are not going to have any impact on climate change and only impact on their citizens. All have to be in to really have a chance for change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    You can't complain about other countries when per person we pollute more. Every country has different size, population etc so the best rating is CO2 per person. So no idea how anyone in Ireland can point fingers when we are worse than most countries.

    If we show the way and reduce our own CO2 then we will make Ireland cleaner but can also look then at other countries. Everyone points to China who is the manufacturing centre in the World and yet they are investing in renewable. Ireland doesn't have manufacturing.

    Also our poor air quality is killing us all slowly. That we can change.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/rise-in-heart-and-lung-patients-due-to-poorer-air-quality-39298131.html



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,214 ✭✭✭✭charlie14



    China are investing in at least 30 new coal burning plants. U.S. increased coal production last year by 18%. Japan, who are building 7 more coal burning plants refused to sign the COP26 agreement saying the wanted to keep their energy requirements open. India where over 75% of their electricity comes from coal would not sign either until the wording was changed from "phasing out coal" to "phasing down coal" Along with Russia these four make up the top five emitters of CO2 on the planet.

    Knowing all this the Irish Green party and their supporters still somehow believe we can save the planet single handed by making a magical jump to 100% renewables without nuclear, natural gas, LNG or anything else and not a single idea on how that can be achieved.

    It`s magical fantasy thinking.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Whataboutery.

    We are responsible for our emissions and we have the power to reduce our emissions.

    Using the emissions, actions or inactions of other countries as a basis for an argument against us improving our own emissions is a fundamentally flawed approach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    Again we require a safe, secure and reliable source of energy to facilitate the transition towards a predominantly renewable-based future.

    Btw nowhere did I say that was an exhaustive list of all the issues with alternatives. Rather an example of the alternatives we have to pick from and examples of just some of the pitfalls. And yes with mass battery storage - one of the known hazards is fire. Not me saying that btw.

    Even with renewables there are significant issues with regard to mining and technology such solar panels etc being manufactured in places like China using electricity generated by means of coal fired power stations.

    At the moment the main choices we have to facilitate transition to renewables are nuclear or natural gas. Take your pick.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,214 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    It`s not whataboutery. It`s about greens here having the insane idea that while wrecking our economy we are somehow going to change any of the practices of 4 of the largest emitters on the planet and save it on our own. All four have shown they have no intention of doing anything about coal burning plants.

    Meanwhile we have greens here expecting us to make a sudden jump to 100% renewable energy without non-renewables and not a single credible example of how that can be achieved. It`s fantasy nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Irelands CO2 level has dropped sharply in the last 12 years, its at 1980 levels.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It`s not whataboutery.

    Yeah it is

    It`s about greens here having the insane idea that while wrecking our economy we are somehow going to change any of the practices of 4 of the largest emitters on the planet and save it on our own.

    Where have the Irish GP stated this objective? Have you a source or link, would like to have a look.

    Meanwhile we have greens here expecting us to make a sudden jump to 100% renewable energy without non-renewables and not a single credible example of how that can be achieved.

    Sudden? A 30 year transition is "sudden"? What does a slow transition look like?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,214 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    No it is not.

    It`s about the greens wrecking our economy when it will achieve sweet f a unless the four largest emitters, (with three of that four being among the strongest economies on the planet), who have clearly shown they have no intentions of dropping their use of coal for energy generation.

    The transition we have managed so far certainly hasn`t achieved the low cost electricity energy we were told it would, nor will it with the pricing policy favoured by greens. So tell me where is this transition going from here.

    How are we going to achieve the transmission to 100% renewable energy where practically all of our renewable energy presently comes from undependable wind that requires non-renewables to keep the lights on where Irish Greens have banned exploration licences, are attempting to ban LNG, will not even consider reopening turf burning stations, will not consider nuclear other than hoping they can scrounge it from elsewhere hoping it will be there at a sufficient level when needed, and plan to close Tarbert next year and Moneytpoint 2 years later. ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Interesting if 100% correct. Very hard to know what facts and figures are correct, there is that much misinformation out there at the moment I find it hard to be able to determine what is true and what is false.

    It's like a story I heard about peat moss being harvesting being stopped in Ireland but it then being imported in massive container ships from another country with hundreds and hundreds of lorries carrying it around the country. Can't be true surely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Well with the report about how obese ireland is, taking a cycle might do all of us a bit of good

    I again refer to the policies from the Greens and if you can point to any asking for Us to cycle 40miles to work

    By the way, car sharing or pooling is done all over teh World, it was called “thumbing” when I was growing up.

    This week alone to reduce fuel teh recommendations to car share and slow down has come from International agencies. Seems the Green got ahead of the rest with that advice



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    The model of car ownership will change, the car dealership model is currently being eroded.

    Comparing any Irish political party to the pol pot regime is completely reprehensible.



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